Metro Atlanta Airsoft

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A network of airsofters in the Metro Atlanta area.


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    What is "reasonable" for airsoft?

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    Post  Guest 18.12.09 3:02

    Airsoft is a sport that many will call a military simulation. Other will call it a sport, and nothing more, a perfectly respectable outlook and one that can be shared by those who consider airsoft as a military simulation as well. This question is geared more for those who see airsoft as a militaristic simulation. The question is, what is and isnt reasonable for an airsoft gun in order to keep it under the realm of relative realism? Drum mags and hicaps driving you crazy? Super high ROF setups bugging you? Do you wish everyone had to use lowcaps? Fully automatic everythings not your deal? Wish your PC counted as actual armoring? Do you think non of this even matters? Lets hear your thoughts people bounce
    Tinman
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    Post  Tinman 18.12.09 7:25

    Since we play for fun only anything goes . . . anything safe that is. Airsoft is a stress-reliever and a time to goof off with people I like after a week of work around people I, for the most part, do not.
    Things that "bug me" about it are:
    1) Thinking it is "mil-sim" . . . I think that is a slap to people who really serve and risk life and limb . . . most of the guys who dodge real bullets view it as a fun game so I do too. Respawn=Game . . . There is no "respawn" for a soldier!
    2) Wanting to be "selectively mil-sim" and judging others for some aspect of their "load-out" while ignoring errors in their own. You cannot be a gear-snob and shoot a gun that is three times the rate of fire of a real weapon . . . the guy shooting a boxmag is making no greater "error" then the guy shooting a mid-cap.
    3) People who put a game above people. Respect for one's fellow man is an increasingly rare commodity these days. If someone is willing to belittle others for how they play a game, what they wear when they play a game, or curse them for mistakes in how they play a game then perhaps they have not outgrown the grade-school bully who belittles someone for how they play dodgeball . . . cuz IMHO essentially these are just small, fast, white "dodgeballs." Respect comes 1st!

    Life is tough so airsoft is a social stress-reliever . . . the older you get, the more you realize that . . . since I am an old fart I will always see airsoft as a game played with toys, a chance to enjoy time around great people, and an opportunity to welcome noobs and build the sport . . . nothing more. Nothing earth-shaking . . . Just my .02
    Airsoftguy238
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    Post  Airsoftguy238 18.12.09 7:30

    When i think of milsim I take it like theyre mimicing(sp?) the gear in use, the guns in use and tactics the military utilizes. And also i take it as often times playing in urban environments. I know some of the bigger battles of the iraq war were in urban environments.
    Q-bald
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    Post  Q-bald 18.12.09 8:19

    I Love Airsoft more than any hobby I have ever tried, and I've tried a lot of things (I'm 39). The cool toys, the interesting people, and the outdoors. Dressing up in Camo was always a fav. of mine as a kid(If I can find a pic of when I was 14 I'll post it and you can all have a good laugh.)
    The word Mil-Sim drives me crazy. My Brother Inlaw has been in Iraq for 4 years and this is his 2nd tour. He has been shot at everyday, He has had to spend a whole night in a canal to escape capture, He has also had to do some despicable things that I will not go into detail here. His 1st month over there, His vehicle was targeted by an I.E.D. He was the only survivor. He described it to me as:

    "When the vehicle was hit, It was like a huge popping sound, then I couldn't hear anything. I found Myself upside down and had to kick out the rear glass of the vehicle. When I came around to the front, what was left of the driver was crushed by the flipped vehicle. The passenger had his face turned away from me and I noticed him struggling to un-holster his side arm. As i approached the passenger, he turned to me and half of his face was completely gone. I pulled him from the vehicle and in a panic, I was trying to put his guts back into his body. He Died in my arms."

    This is what our Military has to deal with on a daily basis and Airsoft is NOT anything like a 'Militay Simulation".

    I think its cool to have all the latest and coolest gear for Airsoft if you can afford it. But i will never look down on someone who cannot.
    This vest, That vest, Box mag, midcap,....Who cares? It's all about stress relief and the Bonding of Men and coming home to your family at the end of the day Alive.
    Alpine
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    Post  Alpine 18.12.09 9:07

    First off thats whats dividing this sport you have a group of people that call their self mil-sim a group that wants to be mil-sim and a group that just want to play.

    1. If you call your self mil-sim then use a gun with the rof and mag capacity that the real steel verision of what your using is.(eg) The M4 shoots 700 to 950 rpm.and has a mag cap of 20 to 30 rds. Most of the stock M4 replicas shoot 800 rpm. so leave it stock and use lo-cap mags.Anything above this is not mil-sim.

    2. If you want to be mil-sim then save the money up for a proper load out and gun.
    untill then just consider your self as someone who just wants to play.

    3. If your in it for fun like me I don't care what brand of gun you use what gear you play in what rof your gun has how many bb's your mag holds.All I want is to have fun with people who like to play honest good tempered and accepts the fact that we are not a military force and who like to chew the fat after a good day of airsoft.


    All in all if you want to be mil-sim then use the correct stuff if you just want to play then expect anything from walmart to inokatsu guns but please don't take this sport to extreme as to were you get angry cuss and want to fight over a game that your not going to get nothing for anyway.This is a sport to have fun with not get angry and stressed.If you can't accept the fact that this is not real combat you may want to pursue other ventures that may be more real like the Military.
    sniper2525
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    Post  sniper2525 18.12.09 9:51

    1. i personaly love wearing gear i wouldnt call my self a gear whore.... but i do have great respect for those who are in the military and by me saying im milsim is no offense to them in anyway i would think bc essentialy in airsoft saying milsim is reinacting what those brave soldiers do for us not slaping them in the face....
    2. one thing that absolutely bugs me is drum mags... yes i do have high rof but who cares i run 8 90 round midcaps so i have to shoot when can. now a person with a drum mag that holds 5,000 rounds can just sit there laying down on the trigger has no tactics what so ever. all of ic runs midcaps bc we all hate drumg mags and high caps.
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    Post  NJSC 18.12.09 10:42

    psst Paul I think it's time for you High Caps is more milsim argument
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    Post  Guest 18.12.09 13:55

    Well, this thread has been alot more successful than I thought it would be! I'm glad I got input from so many people so quickly. That being said, let's keep it respectful to everyone, I know that you guys have all the right in the world to state your opinions, but remember that this subject in particular is rather touchy, so if anything, as a favor to the forum, keep it respectful. Here is my opinion:

    Airsoft is first and foremost a game, however, I would not see it disrespectful to call it "mil-sim" or to try and make it more "mil-sim". The word itself, military simulation, has the roots of course in "military" and "simulation". A simulation is a recreation of any given scenario of a specified event. Technically speaking in airsoft this simulation would be of a small-arms firefight, not neccessarily day to day life in a wartime combat unit. For example, when people use flight simulators on their computer or perhaps even a training area, the only part of the simulation is the flight. You would not expect someone to tell them that they have no right to call it a siumlation because they have not gone through the rigorous background checks and years of training as well as never experience any harsh G-Forces or ever be in any real danger of being killed. The purpose of a simulation is to be a safe recreation of an event. That being said, when we play games open to anyone in the airsoft community you simply cannot expect everyone to conform to mil-sim ideas. Someone wants to play in a cookiemonster shirt? That's totally cool with me and honestly really funny. Someone wants to use a box mag? That's cool, I have one, only reason I don't use it is because I feel I can put more BBs down range faster with hicaps. What people with the mil-sim outlook have to realize is that if you want a mil-sim game you need to have a private mil-sim game with a very specific set of rules established before hand. In the end, its like Q and Tinman said, airsoft is a game, I view it more as a sport, like basketball or wrestling, ultimately the goal is for fun.

    Another thing I wanted to talk about is why hicap and drum magazines are more realistic to reality than low and midcaps. Yes you read that correctly. First, I will list the behavior of an actual rifle and then the behavior of an airsoft gun. I will take the M16A3 as my example for a real-steel rifle. The M16 is for intents and purposes a very accurate firearm, with an effective range of 550m (around 1600+ ft). It fires the 5.56 round, a conical bullet made of varying materials ranging from metals to nylons, at extremely high velocity, and with pinpoint accuracy and alot of range it is an excellent rifle in terms of hitting your target The fully automatic forms of the M16 family tree can reach a ROF of 700-950 RPMs. An airsoft gun on the other hand fires a 6mm plastic sphere at roughly 325-425fps, with an average effective range of 150ft (of course some of use have upgraded ours and have ranges of over 200ft.)The standard rate of fire on an airsoft gun is 800rpm, although plenty of airsoft guns shoot well over 1000rpms. But what do these characteristics mean to eachother? When firing an M16 at a target which hs poked out from cover, a well aimed shot will take one pull of the trigger to eliminate him, the round travels at such a high velocity that it is literally impossible to detect the sound and move out of the way (the bullet travels faster than the speed of sound so it will hit you first). If there are any leaves, twigs, netting, a slight breeze, or light rain the trajectory of the bullet will be more or less unaffected (unless your firing at something 300meters away). Now, lets try this scenario out with an airsoft gun. You fire at a target behind cover with an AEG, first comes the whine of the motor, followed by the small popping sound made by the piston as it shoots air onto the BB. Your target ca easily hear this, and as the BB floats torwards them at 400fps they can easily get out of the way, wether it be getting back behind cover, dropping to the ground, or backing up so you cannot hit them. If a leaf is in the way of your shot, too bad, there it goes, same with twigs, netting, spider webs, heck, a slight breeze can take that sucker off into the other side of the field for all you care. Your shot may also be taken off by the physics of its contact with the air, and spin off into the wrong direction or simply fall too short. So how do airsofters overcome this massive difference? With VOLUME OF FIRE. The more BBs you fire the more probable you are to hit your target, given that your airsoft gun is NOT as accurate as the actual realsteel counterpart. This is why highspeed ROF setups and hicap magazines are not unrealistic, in fact, they add to the realism. I have never been in combat, but I have been im plenty of military simulations through the Aggressor Platoon and the ROTC program at NGCSU, and a 30rnd magazine with the actual thing feels ALOT deeper than a 30rnd locap or even a 150rnd midcap does with an airsoft gun. In reality, when you fire that M16, you get a crisp report, some recoil into your shoulder, and an accurate shot. The person you are shooting at will hear a pop, and a whine or a thud depending on if they were hit or not. In airsoft you have no recoil, no loud report, and no lethal force behind a the round, and in terms of realsteel an incredibly inaccurate trajectory. 30rnds in an airsoft magazine does NOT in any way whatsoever equal the effectiveness of a 30rnd magazine in an M16. You need more BBs on target to try and match the effectiveness of the real steel counterpart's one shot. That is why a high VOLUME of fire in airsoft is more realistic. As for the 5000round drum mags keeping you pinned and not allowing for any tactics, in reality when you are being fired at by a LMG or MMG as well as a plethora of rifles and are pinned down so to speak it is much more demobilizing than a drum mag in airsoft. The sheer noise and destruction being caused around you coupled with the fact of imminent death does more in 5 rounds to keep you from moving than 1000BBs ever could. In reality these stalemates and pinned scenarios last for HOURS, exchanges of fire can last for DAYS even. A bunch of guys holding down full auto on you with drum mags is more accurate to a combat experience than a bunch of guys with low caps sending off a few rounds of semi automatic fire every now and then. Thats my argument in defense of hicaps, drum mags, and high ROF setups.
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    Post  Alpine 18.12.09 14:51

    I see your point on what you are saying but lo-caps do have their place in mil-sim.
    One the range of airsoft compaired to real steel is way closer than the range used for real steel.So that being said lo-caps are very effective at close range more so CQB.Also to simulate means after 20 to 30 rds are spent a mag change is in order. So to effectively simulate a close as to real experience one needs as close to real components that can be used. Thats also why the Military uses simunition or blanks with actual weapons.And the use of M.O.U.T sites because alot more combat is taking place in urban areas.But you do make very stong and valid points. Good topic also Paul. Very Happy
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    Post  Q-bald 18.12.09 15:07

    I too can see why some people like Low/midcaps and it does take some skill to be effective with them like having to make each shot count, Keeping track of how much ammo has been used and having to change mags more often. Another benefit of midcaps is the Stealth factor. When I run across the field I am a human morocco that everyone can hear. I do not dislike Midcaps, I just don't prefer them in my play style. Again, To each his own and don't talk down to someone just because they don't prefer your playing style.
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    Post  Tinman 18.12.09 16:10

    Aggressor wrote:That being said, when we play games open to anyone in the airsoft community you simply cannot expect everyone to conform to mil-sim ideas. Someone wants to play in a cookiemonster shirt? That's totally cool with me and honestly really funny. Someone wants to use a box mag? That's cool, I have one, only reason I don't use it is because I feel I can put more BBs down range faster with hicaps. What people with the mil-sim outlook have to realize is that if you want a mil-sim game you need to have a private mil-sim game with a very specific set of rules established before hand. In the end, its like Q and Tinman said, airsoft is a game, I view it more as a sport, like basketball or wrestling, ultimately the goal is for fun.

    Thats my argument in defense of hicaps, drum mags, and high ROF setups.

    I agree on both points . . . even have two high ROF guns though not uber-high because I would rather spend the extra coin to have a stable of loaner guns and batteries for new players or folks who have dead batteries during a day of game-play. Some of us old-farts have talked about starting a team called the "Loan Wolves" cuz we enjoy loaning guns and gear to players and having things for them to try out. There are just alot of good guys that play airsoft . . . I will always enjoy the camraderie more than the competition because of how I am wound up. Heck, I even had one of my clients ask to come play today and have numerous folks from one of my other clients who have played . . . I hope it is a sport and an environment that is infectious enough to involve everyone no matter whether they love mil-sim or not. Great guys=Great times!
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    Post  Crazy Twitch 18.12.09 16:27

    Drum mags= fail in all ways to me. The only reason why I use midcaps is too atleast keep up with others on the field. I wish everyone would use low caps.... But if you run out there with 5 low caps(which i use to have) then your going to be out gunned in no time. 30 rounds compared to 90 rounds for a real steel capacity mag to a mid cap for airsoft isnt too bad. However 100 rounds compared to 5000 rounds with real steel drum mags to airsoft drum mags is just stupid. Just hold down the trigger as you wish. Razz
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    Post  Guest 18.12.09 16:35

    Hold on now, I'm not trying to diss anyone who uses midcaps or lowcaps, I'm just stating that hicaps and drum mags are just as realistic if not more realistic. Reload time would be different yes, but in reality your 30rnd magazine last much longer, and the shots you take will hit pretty much exactly where you are aiming. In airsoft, its almost up to chance, and your 30rnd magazine will last you but a few minutes tops.
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    Post  Tinman 18.12.09 18:00

    Crazy Twitch wrote:Drum mags= fail in all ways to me. However 100 rounds compared to 5000 rounds with real steel drum mags to airsoft drum mags is just stupid. Just hold down the trigger as you wish. Razz

    No worries to any of us who use them . . .
    Opinions are much like belly-buttons . . . everyone has one . . . lol!
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    Post  Guest 18.12.09 18:14

    Testtube babies don't have belly buttons. tongue
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    Post  Tinman 18.12.09 18:16

    Aggressor wrote:Testtube babies don't have belly buttons. tongue
    Maybe not but I bet they have opinions!! cheers
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    Post  Q-bald 18.12.09 18:18

    Tinman wrote:No worries to any of us who use them . . .
    Opinions are much like belly-buttons . . . everyone has one . . . lol!

    HAHA! I've never heard it that way before...Way to keep it clean Tinman
    Keep in mind that some belly buttons are full of lint and smelly.
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    Post  Bulldog94 18.12.09 18:24

    well if you talk of Military Simulation.. well Mislim I believe should be limited... No hicap mags period.. they should be either low caps or midcaps... no super non-realistic fricken fast firing weapons... Let me also add that I believe Mislim incorprates more than just the weapons we use. Tactics, Clothing, Gear, Etc. are also important in order to successfully do Mislim airsoft. Now this is where the wearing of real military units comes into play. I believe that in the case where There is a mislim reneactment of a past battle or conflict that real military insigna, patches, clothing, etc. should be worn. Now alot of individuals believe that it is disrespectful to wear these items.. i believe that if you want it to be more realistic you need these items.
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    Post  Airsoftguy238 18.12.09 18:31

    Milsim is what you make it I think. If you wanna go out there in MC and a $30 crossdraw with some hicaps and you wanna call yourself milsim go ahead. If you wanna go out there with a legit CIRAS, sport a GBBR and some extra mags and you wanna call yourself milsim, go ahead. Its really what you make it and there are degress of milsim-ness I think. Ive got MC cause it works not because some of the military is just now using it. I've got a replica CIRAS cause I got it for my birthday. And I've got midcaps cause I hate winding. And I have a 30+ rps scar, cause well, high ROF is fun and is a definate advantage. I don't aim for milsim I just wanna like what I use and I think a lot of other players are like that.
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    Post  Bulldog94 18.12.09 18:34

    Airsoftguy238 wrote:Milsim is what you make it I think. If you wanna go out there in MC and a $30 crossdraw with some hicaps and you wanna call yourself milsim go ahead. If you wanna go out there with a legit CIRAS, sport a GBBR and some extra mags and you wanna call yourself milsim, go ahead. Its really what you make it and there are degress of milsim-ness I think. Ive got MC cause it works not because some of the military is just now using it. I've got a replica CIRAS cause I got it for my birthday. And I've got midcaps cause I hate winding. And I have a 30+ rps scar, cause well, high ROF is fun and is a definate advantage. I don't aim for milsim I just wanna like what I use and I think a lot of other players are like that.

    +1

    I agree with some of what you said(and Mislim is what you make it)... Heck I use High Caps.. I just believe that it would be more realistic if we used mid caps in place of High Caps.. I also use Acus because they look cool, not nessarly so it looks as if i am apart of the US Army..
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    Post  Tinman 18.12.09 18:36

    Airsoftguy238 wrote:Ive got MC cause it works not because some of the military is just now using it.
    +1!!
    Twitch and Snakebite proved the effectiveness of MC to me at A13 . . . it flat-out works!
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    Post  Bulldog94 18.12.09 18:38

    Tinman wrote:
    Airsoftguy238 wrote:Ive got MC cause it works not because some of the military is just now using it.
    +1!!
    Twitch and Snakebite proved the effectiveness of MC to me at A13 . . . it flat-out works!

    im still skeptical of its effectiveness.. i have yet to see it lol
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    Post  Twitch 18.12.09 18:38

    I still think that saying BANG BANG BANG is the most mil-sim of all. You know I'm right paul.

    Honestly as much as i would like to have a very strict, "as close to a military excercise as possible" airsoft event. I know its never going to happen. Not unless I go to Irene or lion claws or something, and thats far to expensive for me.

    What i would like to see are more Ops with uniform requirements, maybe some ops that will allow us to use vehicles, (If only we could mount a minigun on my durango Sad ) maybe somehow figure out a way to have actual artillery and mortar simulations (like the noise and visual, just no actual explosion) Something along those lines to give it a more military feel.

    As far as my playing style and what I think is resonable, I'm sorta in the middle. I think its better to "look the part" so to speak, and not play in hunting camo and have box mags on guns that were never ment to have box mags (M4's, MP5's, Non support G36's...etc), I know that where I play there will always be people who do that, and since that is how they like to play then so be it. It is my choice to attend these events so its not my place to criticize them. If it bothers me that much I could just leave.

    I never understood the whole thing about why people get pissed off about wearing patches and tabs and what not. I mean, I understand that some think its disrepectful, and that lots of soldiers think its disrespectful, but I dont. Its like if a kid wears a Lebron James Jersey while playing Rec league basketball. You think Lebron James is gonna come and rip it off of him becuase he hasnt earned the right to wear that jersey and cuss him out for wearing it? Prolly not. The kid is just showing that he supports Lebron James. For most airsofters, I think it would be more or less the same. We are simply idolizing are heros by wearing the patches, and maybe trying to live out a childhood fantasy.

    And if you think about the whole ROF and Highcap thing like this.

    If you have Midcaps that hold 90 -120 rounds (Like most everyone on the forum does) and you have a gun that fires 25-30rps. That means in 3-4 secs you are emptying the magazine.

    Since the M4 has a ROF of 12-14 rps, that means it empties a 30 round magazine in 2. something seconds. This is extremely similar to the time it takes to empty a midcap as stated above. So in reality, HIGH ROF setups combined with midcaps and or highcaps are actually more realistic than most people think.
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    Post  Bulldog94 18.12.09 18:41

    agreed Twitch
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    Post  Crazy Twitch 18.12.09 18:42

    Twitch wrote:

    Since the M4 has a ROF of 12-14 rps, that means it empties a 30 round magazine in 2. something seconds. This is extremely similar to the time it takes to empty a midcap as stated above. So in reality, HIGH ROF setups combined with midcaps and or highcaps are actually more realistic than most people think.

    So true thats why we do that.

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