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    DMR Platform

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    Electioneer

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  Electioneer on 02.07.11 23:48

    logical wrote:
    flipa wrote:
    logical wrote:
    flipa, can you explain more how externals of the gearbox have anything to do with lipo usage? Because I'm not really sure what you mean. KWA's come with 16g teflon wire, good thing they didn't screw up there. That's good enough for an 11.1v depending on how much resistance there is in other places.

    Lipos bump more power and dramatically increases ROF. The faster the ROF, the more cycles your gears go through in a short period of time thus wearing down the teeth on the piston and the gears. I broke a piston head too. I guess it can't handle the stress of 35 RPS. It was a everything stock G&G combat machine with just a mosfet and a 11.1v 1800MaH 25C Lipo. Also the piston teeth were all worn to the point that it's almost nothing there.
    Yes but that is the internals, you said externals lol.

    To Electioneer:

    Those bearings you linked are bearings. Any bearings, especially low quality ones, are prone to failure in DMR setups. Link me a set of 9mm SOLID bushings.

    Speaking from my own experiences I have never had the stock bearings fail in the SR7 or Rhino's Battle Rifle with has an M170 in it. There are NO sets of solid 9mm bushings readily available, I was just posting a possible (although low quality) replacement 9mm.

    Did you adjust the AoE and add sorbo to the front? That would make the front last much longer. I have a JG piston head in my DSG gun, and it has not had any problems whatsoever and is in pristine condition after 10k rounds of firing. Granted those numbers are not as high as yours logic implies that a heavier mass impacting the front of the gearbox will cause damage faster than a plastic one.

    The gun is stock except for the M130, cheapo turbo motor and the mosfet. I literally put the M130 and turbo in there to see how long it would last stock. Granted, your DSG setup is AOE and I assume sorbo'ed so that would help slow wear. I was saying that would rather have the robustness of an aluminum piston head rather than that of a polycarb one. I have had a few polycarb heads break or crack in my experience. Not to say every single one WILL break but I would rather not worry about and just go aluminum. I would use aluminum especially with the KWA 2Gx because of how beefed up the front is.

    I actually have tried installing a Systema bucking into a 2GX hop up a while ago. The sleeve was too long and had to be cut to fit properly, and after that the gun would jam occasionally. I thought it was just the bucking and nub combination (SCS) but after trying a different one with a regular nub the results were the same.

    Not sure what to tell you there. Mine fit with no trimming and feeds with the stock nub. I know Rhino has either a Madbull Blue or Red him his that feeds fine. He had to trim it on the end but you have to do that with every madbull.

    Gears that do not use shims or are installed with methods other than using shims (such as VFC) can be considered self shimming in my view. If the gears mesh perfectly that's the bearings doing. I've had times where I needed to add .01 shims to make it run efficiently.

    If you had to add so few shims to make the gears mesh then the shimming is on par with other companies. Usually they don't get it right and that's fine with me.

    Where do you see me bragging about my gun builds? superchrisguy doubted my experiences with KWA so I provided some proof, showing that I have done some things with them, in no way was I bragging.

    "I've dry fired my DSG P90 for 12 seconds when I had it just to see what would happen, and it just purred like a kitten. No hiccups or anything." Posts like this. It just give people the feeling that you think you know more than they do. It may not seem like coming off as braggadocios to you but it just gives me a feeling like. "This guys thinks here is better than everyone else." I'm sure you didn't meant to come off that way but I'm just giving you fair warning.


    Now I am not saying that KWA is the end all be all of AEGs but I think they are better than what credit you give them. The do have their flaws. For instance I wish they had used different screws on the gearbox and the stock buckings blow but still a pretty solid AEG.


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    logical

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  logical on 03.07.11 0:11

    The problem with the KWA's shimming is that you CAN'T shim them sometimes. If you added a .001 shim anywhere in the gears they would slow and have gear whine.

    You guys must be lucky to have bearings survive that long. After 20k rounds in a friends gun four bearings cracked and broke into pieces.

    Aluminum pistons add weight, which can be good for setups that push heavy, .40g BB's. But in no way is this a good thing for anything else, and a plastic one is preferred. Of all the parts in the gearbox the piston head is a part I would worry about the least.

    Well the 12 seconds part was to emphasize two things: the importance of shimming and how KWA fails to comply there, and how holding down the trigger will not cause problems, such as trigger contact wear. In all technical seriousness though let's assume here that all statements regarding the performance of my guns are used to emphasize crucial points, and in that way we can avoid the issue of someone showing off. By no means do I think I am the best here, everyone makes mistakes, I'm just here to show examples tongue

    About KWA, no offense but your standpoint with KWA is generalized, I am talking specifically about DMR setups. With that said, KWA has credit where it is due but the point I am trying to get across is that KWA is by far the best base gun for a DMR. With off spec part placement and proprietary internals they are inferior when compared to say, a JG or G&P.

    I would like to end this post with a quote by a superior of mine that I find absolutely true about KWA:

    "I find that the more you know about airsoft guns the less you like KWA. If you know almost nothing KWA is AWESOME because KWA's marketing makes you think that they were forged from a small piece of god's testicle. Once you use one and/or take one apart though you notice they aren't particularly well built, have a number of serious design flaws and oversights, and contain a fair bit of proprietary junk. Actually knowing something about guns makes that smokescreen of marketing and hype vanish because you know you can build better for a fraction of the price."
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    Rhino

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  Rhino on 03.07.11 0:40

    I have a KWA DMR over 600 fps stock gear box, stock bearing, stock piston head, cylinder head, and stock air nozzle, Madbull blue hop up bucking. THEY DONT NEED SHIMS! they are perfect as is! They are shimLESS gears! well over 350 foot range and no issues! A video can be seen on the forum of it.


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    -a|ex

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  -a|ex on 03.07.11 0:45

    open bearings require maintenance. if they get dirty or dry up, they will fail. closed bearings FTW.

    Rhino wrote:I have a KWA DMR over 600 fps stock gear box, stock bearing, stock piston head, cylinder head, and stock air nozzle, Madbull blue hop up bucking. THEY DONT NEED SHIMS! they are perfect as is! They are shimLESS gears! well over 350 foot range and no issues! A video can be seen on the forum of it.

    now i know where those holes on my arms came from... LoL


    Last edited by -a|ex on 03.07.11 0:48; edited 1 time in total
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    Electioneer

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  Electioneer on 03.07.11 0:46

    Wouldn't you be using .4g bbs with a DMR setup anyways? That or at least .3.

    To sum it all up, all we can do is state facts about our own experiences and help the dude choose a good base to build his DMR. My advice: Get what you think looks good on the outside and take it from there.

    Of course, we can go back and forth all day (or night) about little details. All companies suck in one way or another. I'm not a fan of any AEG/GBB produced in China and I will buy any base gun from taiwan and go from there. I buy guns for how they look on the outside, anything nice on the inside is just a bonus and I will upgrade accordingly.

    Example: KWA SR7. Nice body, crane stock and 7 in FF rail system. Perfect for the short M4 I wanted to build. Beefed up front end and good internals, good, just needs a ROF boost and a tad more power and we will be rolling.

    That's essentially the thought process that goes into getting any AEG for me. G&P? Great externals, poopy gears on the inside. In a fight to the death between KWA and G&P, KWA wins out because of the slightly better internals that can be used to put together a good DMR or CQB gun, whatever I would like. JG on the other hand... MY GOD, THE CRAPPY METAL!!!!

    Like I said the small things don't make that big of a deal to me. Everything will fail on any gun if you give it enough time and I am more than happy to replace those things. I don't really worry about bearings busting or air nozzles leaking. If something breaks, I fix it Smile

    So again, In the grand scheme of things everything that we can argue for days on things that aren't that big of a deal. At the end of the day, I don't really care which has more superior bushings or proprietary parts it's all just a bunch of metal and plastic anyways.

    Also, I don't listen to marketing BS. You don't have a pubescent KWA fanboy here. I just buy the gun that looks the best Laughing

    That being said I am going to spend my time much more productively and go to sleep Sleep


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    -a|ex

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  -a|ex on 03.07.11 0:49

    p90 DMR owns all... just don't use AB, LoL...
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    Electioneer

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  Electioneer on 03.07.11 0:54

    -a|ex wrote:p90 DMR owns all... just don't use AB, LoL...

    WRONG, just go with the G&G/CA M14. Yea, they used parts from everything other than a TM design M14 to make it hard on you (Modified V6 C-head, AUG air nozzle, V3 spring guide...). But still, looks good Smile


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    logical

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  logical on 03.07.11 17:49

    G&G M14's stocks use some of the crappiest plastic I have ever seen in my entire life. I drop the gun from a foot from a carpeted ground (holding it by front, slipped out of my hand and went straight down mind you) and the stock completely cracks. Thank god I could modify a real steel stock into it.



    I am doubting the 350 feet of range in Rhino's post, can someone link me a video? Either way, a video camera normally wouldn't be able to zoom in at 350 feet while still being able to see a BB unless it was a really nice camera.

    To sum up KWA for DMR purposes: with the flaws it has that limits the guns use for being a reliable DMR, there are far better options out there, while having superior externals than a KWA (IMO KWA externals are very crappy lol)

    For $380 you may as well get a VFC and go from there. Fantastic externals (possibly the best for stock AEG) with a gearbox that has the closest specs to TM, while still being equipped with 8mm holes.
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    Electioneer

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  Electioneer on 03.07.11 18:05

    I like VFC too. Oh, and EBR all the way.


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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  Guest on 04.07.11 10:13

    logical wrote:

    I am doubting the 350 feet of range in Rhino's post, can someone link me a video? Either way, a video camera normally wouldn't be able to zoom in at 350 feet while still being able to see a BB unless it was a really nice camera.

    Come play a game at ACZ. I'm sure he'd love to prove it to you Razz
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    Rhino

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  Rhino on 04.07.11 13:40

    logical wrote:G&G M14's stocks use some of the crappiest plastic I have ever seen in my entire life. I drop the gun from a foot from a carpeted ground (holding it by front, slipped out of my hand and went straight down mind you) and the stock completely cracks. Thank god I could modify a real steel stock into it.



    I am doubting the 350 feet of range in Rhino's post, can someone link me a video? Either way, a video camera normally wouldn't be able to zoom in at 350 feet while still being able to see a BB unless it was a really nice camera.

    To sum up KWA for DMR purposes: with the flaws it has that limits the guns use for being a reliable DMR, there are far better options out there, while having superior externals than a KWA (IMO KWA externals are very crappy lol)

    For $380 you may as well get a VFC and go from there. Fantastic externals (possibly the best for stock AEG) with a gearbox that has the closest specs to TM, while still being equipped with 8mm holes.

    You can doubt all you want I have a 4000.00 range finder to range different targets that I can positive hit with no issues. I can hit targets of 350 ft with no issues. I don't have anything to prove, so theres no need for me to lie. But again doubt all you want!


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    xyzpdq0121

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  xyzpdq0121 on 04.07.11 14:26

    I will say this: Rhino made a G36K that I bought that shoots 300ft effective distance and was only about 5-10 shorter distance than Poop's new BFG gun. So I don't doubt that his personal gun can do that and a whole lot more!!! Just saying!
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    -a|ex

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  -a|ex on 04.07.11 15:37

    anyone that's a regular player at airdog's knows rhino's reputation very well. i can vouch for his skills and AEG builds. i try to avoid being on the opposite team. btw, i just ordered a cheapo laser rangefinder. shooting trees across the pond was my way to zero the scope, but i think i've been shooting above player's heads during blackhawk. what is that distance from the woodland entrance to across the pond?

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  logical on 04.07.11 16:02

    Rhino would you care to explain to me how you achieved 350 feet range? Out of 10 shots how many will hit a human sized target? And are you lobbing at all?

    Besides perfect compression, a powerful spring, and heavy, HQ BB's, what do you do to the hop up? Something along the lines of a flat nub?
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    -a|ex

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  -a|ex on 04.07.11 19:59

    i can answer that. extremely high fps + heavy weight bbs + hopup (madbull blue) + tight barrel with no movement. this is basic DMR build. modifying the bucking isn't necessary unless you're a one hit kill player. hitting targets 1/10 is still a hit. on some days, i hit 1/10 at 100 feet. depends how healthy i am that day.
    i've popped in an sp170 on occasion on my Tavor. estimated over 300+ feet with more energy to cross over 3 houses in my neighborhood.
    i use overhop with consistency to reach over 300 feet (no exact measurement except each yard is 100 feet). since our field limit is 550, i use a worn out sp160 that chrono's 530 fps and reaches 300 feet on a good (humid) day. with Rhino's 600 fps, i have no doubt it hits 350 feet. gearbox protection is also basic knowledge for DMR builders.

    it also depends on the quality of stock parts. some batches are stronger or weaker. a good example are microprocessors. the CPU's are separated to see which ones are faster and which ones are slower. in this case, the stronger and weaker gearsets are not separated and it's a luck shot to get a good one.

    Logical, i don't doubt your tech skills. i have experienced failures on identical builds that have proven to be reliable.
    btw, have you built any 600+ fps DMR's?

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  logical on 04.07.11 20:54

    I wouldn't say 625 FPS is extremely high but okay, and the Madbull blue has been known to be crap, only redeeming quality being the two X nubs they come with. I have done a VSR build that I reached 720 FPS with .20g's. I clamped the barrel down using eight screws and self expanding foam (no wobble, movement, ect whatsoever), extended flat nub made of sorbo with an extended barrel window, PDI 6.05mm polished barrel, and perfect seal using washed .40g BB's. With a range finder, I could hit a human sized tree at best 7/10 times at 290 feet.

    Accuracy means to me that a gun can hit a target at least 7/10 times, to say that it is accurate to a certain distance. It doesn't mean jack that a gun can reach 350 feet without being able to consistently hit anything. By 350 feet accurate I at least expected him to be able to hit something consistently, not just lobbing BB's down a range. Sure, I could hit things at 400 feet if the area was flat, wind was still. But I could never get the gun to hit a human sized target at 400 feet more than 3 times out of 10 shots.

    I just think differently when you mention the term "accurate." If a hit at 350 feet once out of numerous tries means accuracy to you guys, fine with me; to me that just means luck.

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    Rhino

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  Rhino on 04.07.11 21:18

    logical wrote:I wouldn't say 625 FPS is extremely high but okay, and the Madbull blue has been known to be crap, only redeeming quality being the two X nubs they come with. I have done a VSR build that I reached 720 FPS with .20g's. I clamped the barrel down using eight screws and self expanding foam (no wobble, movement, ect whatsoever), extended flat nub made of sorbo with an extended barrel window, PDI 6.05mm polished barrel, and perfect seal using washed .40g BB's. With a range finder, I could hit a human sized tree at best 7/10 times at 290 feet.

    Accuracy means to me that a gun can hit a target at least 7/10 times, to say that it is accurate to a certain distance. It doesn't mean jack that a gun can reach 350 feet without being able to consistently hit anything. By 350 feet accurate I at least expected him to be able to hit something consistently, not just lobbing BB's down a range. Sure, I could hit things at 400 feet if the area was flat, wind was still. But I could never get the gun to hit a human sized target at 400 feet more than 3 times out of 10 shots.

    I just think differently when you mention the term "accurate." If a hit at 350 feet once out of numerous tries means accuracy to you guys, fine with me; to me that just means luck.



    LOL!


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    NJSC
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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  NJSC on 04.07.11 22:45


    Sounds like a DMR duel


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    -a|ex

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  -a|ex on 04.07.11 23:30

    logical wrote:
    I just think differently when you mention the term "accurate." If a hit at 350 feet once out of numerous tries means accuracy to you guys, fine with me; to me that just means luck.


    accuracy is determined by the shooter. consistency, the AEG. the advantage of an AEG is that you can quickly have trackable follow up shots without re-aiming the scope so 1/10 is still a hit vs a springer at 2-3 seconds per shot (i also have an L96 but never used it in a game because it's too slow and limited on ammo capacity). a hit is a hit, doesn't matter how many times you have to shoot.

    you're really moving away from a KWA being able to be a DMR vs it's not a DMR because the shooter can't get better than 7/10 hit ratio. i've seen many players that have problems hitting cans at 100 feet on stock KWA's (my kids hit cans at that range easy on our backyard). that doesn't mean their AEG sux, just means they suck at hitting cans at 100 feet.
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    Rhino

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  Rhino on 05.07.11 18:43

    -a|ex wrote:
    logical wrote:
    I just think differently when you mention the term "accurate." If a hit at 350 feet once out of numerous tries means accuracy to you guys, fine with me; to me that just means luck.


    accuracy is determined by the shooter. consistency, the AEG. the advantage of an AEG is that you can quickly have trackable follow up shots without re-aiming the scope so 1/10 is still a hit vs a springer at 2-3 seconds per shot (i also have an L96 but never used it in a game because it's too slow and limited on ammo capacity). a hit is a hit, doesn't matter how many times you have to shoot.

    you're really moving away from a KWA being able to be a DMR vs it's not a DMR because the shooter can't get better than 7/10 hit ratio. i've seen many players that have problems hitting cans at 100 feet on stock KWA's (my kids hit cans at that range easy on our backyard). that doesn't mean their AEG sux, just means they suck at hitting cans at 100 feet.


    Well said


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    poopdaddy

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    Re: DMR Platform

    Post  poopdaddy on 05.07.11 23:39

    this got way out and off topic


    ok
    i think that out of all the aeg snipers i have shot mine more than most
    i went thru three or four gear boxes before i got it right.
    so
    pick the m4 you like(i loved my a&k spr full metal and only gave it up for my barrett)
    get a good gear box and go from there
    if you still have the saw and want to swap i am game
    i can get 480 or so out of it for you
    and let you use it at an airdog game to try it out
    it will be a battery hog and need a mosfet(or poopfet)and an 11.1 lipo
    pm me


    and now for the fun
    check the new my gun is better than yours cause thread
    poop

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