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    JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

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    Admin
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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  Admin on 28.02.09 12:54

    Rhino, have you broken one down yet to see the quality of the internals?

    Somehow, V2 Gearbox + 420FPS + Clone doesn't seem like a great combination.


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    {ACE}Shot Gun

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  {ACE}Shot Gun on 05.03.09 0:00

    like it but i was stupid and shot a brick wall and it bounced back and hit me in inch away from my eye because i did not wear some kind of face wear it looked like a pimple lol!

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  Guest on 05.03.09 10:08

    Not to be rude, but 155$ is the cheap kind. Don't worry, I was there once too, we all can't afford the higher end AEGs, but keep in mind that you get what you pay for in airsoft, this fact is and always will remain true. While clones are getting better and better I would never put a JG in front on a G&G. Another thing to remember is the FPS MYTH. Your FPS plays a certain role in your range and accuracy, but not nearly as large as you think. Effective range is all about accuracy, and accuracy is all about hopup and airflow, as well as barrel diameters. A stock TokyoMarui AK has more effective range than any JG M4/M16 series (M4/M16 meaning any variant branching off of the original Colt Arms M16A1) that I've ever seen, and the Marui has 285 fps. The reason these companies throw these numbers at you is to make their appeal go up, and while the JG may be a good weapon you need to understand that FPS has a dramatically smaller effect on your weapons performance than you think. If I were you I would get the G&G, for quality's sake.

    ATLAS

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  ATLAS on 05.03.09 10:18

    {TxS}BIG BEN wrote:how well does it shoot atlas rabbit

    Great, the only problem I have had with it was a bad airseal/hopup, but that was more than likely my fault. I would make sure that you end up with a reenforced gearbox. you can spend all the money you want upgrading internals but if your gearbox wont hold it, it was pointless.


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    Chief

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  Chief on 05.03.09 11:10

    Agg.Cand. wrote:Not to be rude, but 155$ is the cheap kind. Don't worry, I was there once too, we all can't afford the higher end AEGs, but keep in mind that you get what you pay for in airsoft, this fact is and always will remain true. While clones are getting better and better I would never put a JG in front on a G&G. Another thing to remember is the FPS MYTH. Your FPS plays a certain role in your range and accuracy, but not nearly as large as you think. Effective range is all about accuracy, and accuracy is all about hopup and airflow, as well as barrel diameters. A stock TokyoMarui AK has more effective range than any JG M4/M16 series (M4/M16 meaning any variant branching off of the original Colt Arms M16A1) that I've ever seen, and the Marui has 285 fps. The reason these companies throw these numbers at you is to make their appeal go up, and while the JG may be a good weapon you need to understand that FPS has a dramatically smaller effect on your weapons performance than you think. If I were you I would get the G&G, for quality's sake.

    I'm with you Agg.Cand. Though the ECHO 1/JG's are getting closer they aren't there yet. With upgrades ($), you can get a JG shooting as fast and as accurate as a G&G, CA, or TM, but I would be very skeptical on the long term durability. Once you add all the $$ to it how close would you have been to having that $$ to buy the higher quality gun? I know not everyone can afford a G&G so JG has filled a place in the market that needed to be filled.

    The first mid range airsoft gun I purchased was a JG M4. Came out of the box shooting 370 and still shoots about 350-360 after 3 years. Never cracked open the gearbox once. The only thing that isn't stock in it is the inner barrel. It's been a loner gun for a while now and still takes a regular beating! On the other hand I bought an ECHO 1 M733 (short version of the M4) and it died at about 1 year. On average, the stock ECHO's and JG's will not last as long as the higher end guns before you have to start putting money into them to keep them on the field.

    I currently have a full metal CA, SRC, and 2 A&K's that would be considered "high-end" along with various mid range guns. Depending on my role on the field, I will often carry my stock SRC M4 that shoots only 320-330 FPS, before I would take one of my higher FPS JG's. (I may have to run with one of my old guns for "old times" sake Very Happy )

    In defense of the mid range guns...
    If they didn't come out with the $100'ish guns, I would say that the airsoft world would be cut down by at least 2/3 or even 3/4 from what it is today! They have made the sport more accessible to sooooo many more people. I'm one of those. There was no way I was going to spend $250-$350+ on my first airsoft gun!

    "So often it starts with a simple Wal-Mart spring pistol... then you get hooked." Twisted Evil

    {ACE}Shot Gun

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  {ACE}Shot Gun on 05.03.09 11:22

    well its shooting at 420 fps and the gun is long range Rolling Eyes

    UBCS Gibbs

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  UBCS Gibbs on 05.03.09 11:35

    Chief wrote:I'm with you Agg.Cand. Though the ECHO 1/JG's are getting closer they aren't there yet. With upgrades ($), you can get a JG shooting as fast and as accurate as a G&G, CA, or TM, but I would be very skeptical on the long term durability.

    Not sure if I agree with you 100%. Granted, my Echo MP5 has only been around for a year, but it has been through more rounds then any of my other guns. (Easily 20K) The only upgraded part in it is a G&P White Polycarb Piston and that cost me $10. Other then that, the gun is 100% stock. I have no signs of wear and tear even with extended use with a Li-Po. I may have gotten a super Echo, but I hear this story all the time from people with echo's.

    Rhino

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  Rhino on 05.03.09 12:03

    I tend to disagree with the whole name brand thing! I'll just give to examples....

    1st GG UMG - I know it is a over priced gun because all it is, is a Double eagle rebrand with a few upgraded parts that I can literaly get for a few dollars each. They did nothing to the body and very little to the internals in order to charge 240+ I have less into my UMP/UMG (which is a DE rebranded TSD) and everything has been replaced with GG parts or better parts. I have replaced a lot of things that are still DE on the GG gun and still have less into mine. The specs of the gun are in my signature I could have certainly bought a subpar GG if I wanted to spend more money!

    2nd AGM M4 stubby killer - We sell this gun for $150 and I can tell you this gun has very nice components in it. Parts that a TM or other top name brands dream of having... For 150 it is a full metal body, metal bushing, correctly shimmed steel gears (unlike the pot metal crappy sector gear in a TM), Metal spring guide, ball bearing piston head, A nice piston with the second tooth already removed for proper engagement. These are all parts that one would have to spend 150+ dollars to get installed into their TM gun. I did a few upgrades to one (piston, m120 and motor) it shoots 29bps.. It will outlast, out perform a TM and still has less money tied up in it then a TM would have costed.

    Dont get me wrong I have lots of Brand name guns myself, but most of these guys buy a JG/Echo1 just to upgrade it and once they do that, they will be out performing the name brand guns for less money. There is a difference in build materials also. The plastic on my TM g36 is way nicer than a JG and the Screws are also better than a JG but..... that doesnt mean its gonna last longer or be better in the long run.... I have had my TM G for 5+ years and the only thing TM left is the body and hopup unit. Gears broke long ago, piston was trashed long ago. I also have a friend that has had a stock JG G for about 3 years and we just recently upgraded it, to find that the stock parts were in excellent condition! and its still running on stock gears.

    In all I think the build materials and QC is a lot better in name brand guns, but a lot of times it may not be worth it! Also a lot of times the clone companies lie and say a lot of things like "lipo ready", "420fps", "reinforced black mech box" when in reality a lipo will destroy it in a few hundred rounds, or it only shoots 360-380fps, or its just a standard mech box spray painted black!

    I think its all in peference and budget personally! Smile


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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  Guest on 05.03.09 14:53

    True enough Rhino, but I was speaking more along the lines of stock performance, and there always are exceptions to the rule. For example, the Classic Army M14 has poor performance and low reliability straight from the box, and it costs around 270$, while my Echo1 G36c came out of the box with much better performance than I expected and still works fine after around 10K through it (as well as the AGM you were speaking of).

    Chief

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  Chief on 05.03.09 17:03

    Okay Rhino... your going to make me eat my words... Smile

    After reading your post I decided to "take inventory". So I don't bore everyone to death, I'll list the "inventory" below and jump to my conclusion. Smile

    The conclusion...
    Though it seems to be a gamble no matter which way you go, because the factories these guns come from are not known for their quality control, my investments into the less expensive guns have definitely paid off. As Rhino said about preference, I prefer to run with the all metal higher end guns but that doesn't mean they are necessarily the best value. If you can afford it, at least try to get a gun with a metal body.

    I suspect (maybe it's false hope) that the higher end guns have tighter tolerances and better quality control but I have no hard evidence to support that. Rhino has the "quality of parts" evidence that he shared. I will say that one of the stock JG's I opened up had CA gears in it, and to me that shows that they get whatever parts they can at the best possible price at the time. The other JG's I have opened have had no indication on who manufactured the gears. This supports the "it's a gamble" theory.


    Eating my words....
    As you'll see below, my own evidence plays into what Rhino has said about "brand names". These are stock guns unless otherwise noted. Guns listed in order of purchase, the oldest about 3 years ago. They all have very significant (heavy) usage unless otherwise noted. Most are used as loner guns and are abused as such by new players. When I say no repairs that means no repairs where I needed to replace parts in or on the gun. These are all guns I own except for 2 of them as noted.

    Inventory....
    JG M4 - No repair needed. 6.04 barrel (very heavy usage)
    ECHO 1 M733 - Gear box cracked (everything was stock when it cracked). Hop-up cracked.
    UTG L96 - No repairs needed. 6.01 barrel with barrel spacers.
    Crossman MP5 - No repair needed. Purchased used.
    CYMA M14 - No repair work needed. Put a 130 spring in it but changed nothing else in the gear box. 6.03 barrel.
    JG M4 - No repairs needed. (this one is a friends that he keeps at my house)
    JG M4 - Replaced motor and pinion gear. Purchased used.
    A&K 249 MII - 140 spring. 6.03 barrel. Spring broke and replaced it with another 140. (very heavy usage)
    ECHO 1 AK47 - Replaced motor. After running with a 120 spring for a short period, 90% of gearbox internals failed and need to be replaced. (this one is a friends that he keeps at my house)
    SRC M4 (Full Metal) - No repairs needed
    SRC G36 Long Barrel (plastic body) - No repairs needed. Selector switch assembly very loose.
    CA M16A1 (full metal) - No repairs needed. 120 spring. 6.01 barrel. Rhino just added a MOSFET.
    CA M15A4 Sportline - No repairs needed.
    CA MP5 Sportline - No repairs needed. Purchased used. (medium usage)
    JG M16A2 - No repairs needed. (light usage)
    WELL L96 - No repairs. 6.01 w/barrel spacers. (used once)
    A&K SR25K - 6.03 barrel. (not used yet)
    TSD SD700 - (not used yet)


    Last edited by Chief on 06.03.09 9:02; edited 1 time in total

    Admin
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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  Admin on 05.03.09 18:06

    ^Got enough guns there?
    I've also had bad luck with a JG/E1 AK.

    The only clones that I've used that can really go head-to head with a high-end are the JG G36c, the CYMA M14, and the Dboys RK-01s.


    I personally wasn't blown away by my KWA G36c until I took it apart and looked at the gearbox and realized how much potential the gun had. Of course, when you're using an 8.4v battery, all that really can "shine" is a gun's accuracy/effective range.


    The TM SOC16 completely blew me out of the water. I got more range out of the stock TM FPS than most people do with 350+ FPS. The TM M14 hopup design is simply amazing. and the externals on that gun are so far beyond any other TM I've ever handled. However, I've been able to handle several non-SOCOM TM M14's and the finish on the stock wasn't that great.


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    XXX

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  XXX on 05.03.09 20:55

    I think JG had QC problems with the Ak-47s because the first one I got had some weird problems but then I returned it and the second one I got is awesome, I have a 9.6v running in it and it upheld almost perfectly except for the regular wear and tear on the internals from having a 9.6v.
    Problems I have run into:
    Screwed Bucking...easily replaced (thanks to airdog)
    Screwed standard mag(probably cause I wound it to fast)replaced mag spring.
    Regular wear and tear on the piston.
    Total=45 to have a gun running easily on a 9.6v and have 395fps.

    sniper2525

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  sniper2525 on 08.03.09 21:01

    me personaly i will bever buy a clone for myself
    all i have is ca and tm and vfc very soon
    i have opened every gun from highend to clones and there is a big difference in qualitie of parts especialy witht the gears piston and gearbox itself

    protwitness

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  protwitness on 07.04.09 15:58

    Have had my JG M4A1 Carbine for 13 days now, and have put more than 7k rounds through it. Still shoots like new, and chronoed at about 430 (rated 435). Mas everything stock, but Ill open up the gearbox and see if it can handle a 140. Did have a very strange phantom problem the 1st and 2nd day, after about a 3 shot burst on auto, gun would not stop firing. Flipped to safe and it stopped. I havent had that problem since.

    Overall, seems to be a great gun for 120 dollars (and included hicap, battery, and charger) and I would recommend it to anyone that was looking for an aeg.

    navyseal1000

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  navyseal1000 on 27.05.09 13:41

    Rhino wrote:I tend to disagree with the whole name brand thing! I'll just give to examples....

    1st GG UMG - I know it is a over priced gun because all it is, is a Double eagle rebrand with a few upgraded parts that I can literaly get for a few dollars each. They did nothing to the body and very little to the internals in order to charge 240+ I have less into my UMP/UMG (which is a DE rebranded TSD) and everything has been replaced with GG parts or better parts. I have replaced a lot of things that are still DE on the GG gun and still have less into mine. The specs of the gun are in my signature I could have certainly bought a subpar GG if I wanted to spend more money!

    2nd AGM M4 stubby killer - We sell this gun for $150 and I can tell you this gun has very nice components in it. Parts that a TM or other top name brands dream of having... For 150 it is a full metal body, metal bushing, correctly shimmed steel gears (unlike the pot metal crappy sector gear in a TM), Metal spring guide, ball bearing piston head, A nice piston with the second tooth already removed for proper engagement. These are all parts that one would have to spend 150+ dollars to get installed into their TM gun. I did a few upgrades to one (piston, m120 and motor) it shoots 29bps.. It will outlast, out perform a TM and still has less money tied up in it then a TM would have costed.

    Dont get me wrong I have lots of Brand name guns myself, but most of these guys buy a JG/Echo1 just to upgrade it and once they do that, they will be out performing the name brand guns for less money. There is a difference in build materials also. The plastic on my TM g36 is way nicer than a JG and the Screws are also better than a JG but..... that doesnt mean its gonna last longer or be better in the long run.... I have had my TM G for 5+ years and the only thing TM left is the body and hopup unit. Gears broke long ago, piston was trashed long ago. I also have a friend that has had a stock JG G for about 3 years and we just recently upgraded it, to find that the stock parts were in excellent condition! and its still running on stock gears.

    In all I think the build materials and QC is a lot better in name brand guns, but a lot of times it may not be worth it! Also a lot of times the clone companies lie and say a lot of things like "lipo ready", "420fps", "reinforced black mech box" when in reality a lipo will destroy it in a few hundred rounds, or it only shoots 360-380fps, or its just a standard mech box spray painted black!

    I think its all in peference and budget personally! Smile

    I disagree. Tokyo Marui is the most reliable gun company I have ever heard of. Now I have shot E1s, JGs, and others and I could still tell you that TM is still way ahead of them. I had my TM P90 for about 5 years and it never EVER broke. I'm getting ready to buy a TM M4A1 and upgrade the heck out of it. Trust me Rhino, if Tak and them battled with TMs and thier incredible hop up systems, they would get it.


    Last edited by navyseal1000 on 27.05.09 13:46; edited 1 time in total

    XXX

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  XXX on 27.05.09 13:43

    TM M4=FAIL.

    JK but seriously I think you revived a dead thread.

    Continuing on with the dead thread...TM in my opinion is not always the top leader of making guns with great quality at a great price.

    navyseal1000

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  navyseal1000 on 27.05.09 14:21

    XXX wrote:TM M4=FAIL.

    JK but seriously I think you revived a dead thread.

    Continuing on with the dead thread...TM in my opinion is not always the top leader of making guns with great quality at a great price.

    Well I'm on a high budget here and I might as well by the higher end guns for better quality.

    Admin
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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  Admin on 27.05.09 15:37

    IMO, the TM M4 isn't TM's best gun. It's got a two piece barrel, and it's all plastic. If I was going to do an M4 project, I'd use a G&G or a KWA. Maybe a G&P. I guess I just like externals a lot. But you can get a Dboys steel body from ebaybanned for like $50 shipped. Paul got a 1-piece metal outer barrel with some sick Noveske trademarks on it for pretty cheap somewhere too.
    Don't get me wrong, TM has a lot of awesome guns. I own a TM, and I like it a whole lot more than my KWA, or any gun I've ever owned. But their M4 series is really OLD tech. Hasn't been updated much since the mid-90's.

    But then again, if you want parts computability, the TM is the king.

    navyseal1000

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  navyseal1000 on 27.05.09 17:17

    Admin wrote:IMO, the TM M4 isn't TM's best gun. It's got a two piece barrel, and it's all plastic. If I was going to do an M4 project, I'd use a G&G or a KWA. Maybe a G&P. I guess I just like externals a lot. But you can get a Dboys steel body from ebaybanned for like $50 shipped. Paul got a 1-piece metal outer barrel with some sick Noveske trademarks on it for pretty cheap somewhere too.
    Don't get me wrong, TM has a lot of awesome guns. I own a TM, and I like it a whole lot more than my KWA, or any gun I've ever owned. But their M4 series is really OLD tech. Hasn't been updated much since the mid-90's.

    But then again, if you want parts computability, the TM is the king.

    I'll be replacing the barrel anyway, I'll be upgrading it to the max so its not like I'm not going to do anything to it...

    Airsoftguy238

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    Re: JG M4/Clone vs. High-end discussion

    Post  Airsoftguy238 on 27.05.09 18:23

    I've used an echo 1 m4 in a game before and that thing performed great! Good range, real good accuracy, decent ROF and sturdy. One thing I've noticed with maruis is they fall apart. For the money Echo/JG> Marui

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