Let the ****Storm Begin

http://weaponsman.com/?p=2814

TL:DR Females are inbound to Ranger School; says in the article that standards are being altered to accommodate the same level of attrition for females as in males ( i.e. the males have roughly 60% attrition, therefore standards will be changed for females so that females will also have a 60% attrition rate)

Before I say anything, obviously, OBVIOUSLY, OBVIOUSLY, this article is not an accredited source, and therefore its validity cannot be verified.

On the chance that it is true, this is truly a tragedy. Not because females are being let into Ranger School. But because standards will be changed expressly for them. There are already plenty of places where male and female standards are not equal. One example is the APFT (Army Physical Fitness Test). To score 300/300 points as a male (17-21) you must do 72pushups 2minutes; 78 situps 2minutes; and run the 2mile in 13:00. For a female to get a 300/300, she must do 42 pushup, 78 situps, and run the 2mile in 15:36. This means as a female, you don't need to be nearly as physically fit as your male counterpart to be considered in TOP Army condition. This isn't that big a deal, because females do not participate in combat arms units (yet) and therefor when it comes down to brass tax that difference won't be getting anyone killed (yet). I truly don't care if females are allowed into Ranger School. If a female can pass Ranger school with the men, outstanding, good for her. But giving them their own grading standard....I don't even have to say.

I do admit that I do get a little sexist when it comes to the military. Why? Not because the ego thing that I get my butt kicked by some females but because there are just some tasks that are rendered inconvenient for female counter-parts. Especially for my MOS field (Field Artillery). I can't really see a female being able to haul 155mm rnds all day since they're just NOT DESIGNED and BUILT for strenuous upper body stress. Yeah I've seen a lot of females break their hips just from ruck marches. I have nothing against letting females in Combat Arms just let them go with the same standard us males have to go through. The standards don't change in combat and if they are held in that lower standard to accommodate their given capabilities then there's a problem. Our high PT were all females in BCT because of that scale they have even though the male counterparts pretty much pushed the numbers way higher than them (one male did 101 push-ups, 89 sit-ups, ran a 12:30 2 mile but a female still beat him on the extended scale).

And oh boy Ranger school... I want to see that if they ever plan on doing so.

Females WILL be sent to Ranger School next year. This IS happening.

i think they ought to have a shot at the training.....with the same standards across the board...

Crap.......in 96 the Army created an MP unit specifically to be attached to the 3RD US INFANTRY (The Old Guard). Why??? So females could be in the unit. As an Infantry Soldier, we are only given 3 weeks to complete the required training to be part of the unit. The MP's were given 6 months. At the end of this time, they were still dropping caskets....in front of the family's. Instead of being fired, they were moved to S&T's (State and Territorial flags) for retirement ceremonies and such in the DC area. It was also during this time that the Regimental SGM told.......told....the NCOIC of the Tomb of the Unknowns that a female would be at the Tomb. The Tomb Guard quarters were renovated for the addition of females. (they had to have private dressing rooms and such).

I don't doubt that there are females that could pass Ranger School as it is right now, but that number is so low, I don't think it is worth the money to send 100 of them only to get that 1 that can pass. This is just F'd up. There are going to be at least 3 times during the school that a female is going to have a certain issue. Is she going to be excused from training for it? If she isn't allowed to take care of herself, she can have serious health issues.

I wonder what the reasoning is behind this.

Since women are not in Combat MOS', does this mean that the next time Twitch has a pay issue, the pay-clerk he talks to about will have manicured/painted nail, shiny lip gloss.....and a frackin RANGER tab?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Andy wrote:
Since women are not in Combat MOS', does this mean that the next time Twitch has a pay issue, the pay-clerk he talks to about will have manicured/painted nail, shiny lip gloss.....and a frackin RANGER tab?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

There are already some females that are in "Combat Arms". There are females that are combat medics when I was in Sill. There are also what they call Female Engagement teams that apparently do the same jobs as a 11B. And apparently they let females to sign up as Infantry in the Corp. I can see serious health and hygiene issues with females being Combat Arms.

the big problem i see for women in the military is combat.
all test and requirements need to be the same for every solder
but when war happens it is not with a fair and just enemy.
the US tends to fight evil.we fight bad people doing bad things.
when you put a woman into a situation that men are (if captured) tortured what will be done to a woman is much worse.she will go thru the same abuse,but things will be done to her beyond what will be done to her male counterpart.women are not the weaker sex,they can do things men can't.it is not a mans job to stop,hold back,or protect women.but we need to use good judgment when we place our people in harms way.we use seat belts,motorcycle helmets,police use bulletproof vests,firefighters use fire retardant clothing,and cars have airbags.lets think first and then act.
my 2cents
poop

This is a bad, bad, bad Idea.

i find it funny how the few females on this forum haven't checked in...lol...come on girls....

somehow i don't think these girls are too worried about their period in the field....Karakal battalion from the IDF,(which, by the way uses the same physical standards for males and females)...light inf,70%+ female, hauling one of their male members who fell out during a night march on the jordanian border ...


and ummm, fyi...our fundamentalist Muslim opponents are more likely to "abuse" a male US POW than a western woman ,which they usually see as immoral and unclean and therefore untouchable ...(thought all the older guys walking around hand in hand with younger boys you might see in country might have made that impression..as well as it being a VERY effective way to break a western male prisoner emotionally....) also fundy muslims believe that a man killed by a woman would have a very "poor" afterlife....lol..no gardens of virgins for them...

also,you guys do understand that there are numerous birth control meds that severely limit or shut down a woman's period while they are being used right?no period- no "health issue"....

Those drugs also cause...mood problems...and they also have an alarming chance to lead to problems conceiving children with elongated use. As with any medication, there are always side effects.

These Ranger Candidates can only be chosen from female officers. Now, I will say this. NGCSU has produced twice since I've been there the #1 female cadets in the nation, I knew both of them, I have done FTXs with them. My peers in my own class produced three females who fell in the top 5% of the overall national OML. These are the women that will be MOST eligible to go to Ranger School. These are, according to PT scores, LDAC scores, the national OML, everything on paper and from personal recommendations, the BEST females commissioning into the Army. I can say with the utmost confidence and clarity after having trained next to these individuals, at BEST, they performed on par with the average male. And the average male cadet is in no way shape or form fit to attend Ranger School.

EDIT; Also wanted to add, those women may be in the IDF on equal grounds. Which is an achievement and a testament to females for sure. But the IDF is not the Airborne Rangers. And in our Army, females do not perform to male standards, they perform to their own modified scale. I think that is the true core of this whole debacle. These women won't be held to RangerSchool standards. They will be held to a new invented standard specifically for them. Its almost like those who are fighting for their equal involvement in the Army are at the same time saying that they are incapable of competing with their male counterparts. I would never want to be part of an organization that gave me leeway because of a genetic difference I had. Its insulting! Like SFC Anderson said, there are definitely females out there who could pass RangerSchool. But the number is so low that the return of sending them would be abysmal, you'd have an unbelievable attrition rate, so much so that it would seem like females were being discriminated against at the school. Regardless, most females who display exceptional physical abilities wind up in athletics, because the supply of them is so low that the demand for them in these areas is very very high.

lol..sorry paul..i gotta' call bs..

Those drugs also cause...mood problems...and they also have an alarming chance to lead to problems conceiving children with elongated use. As with any medication, there are always side effects.

in more than 20+ years of living with women,as roommates,gf's,wives,etc..., i found women to be more "stable" on BC, then when off it...your mileage may vary...and you do understand that conception is not a goal every woman aspires to ,right?maybe serving their country is more important to them than having kids?

so you are saying that the best female officers in the Army perform ,at best, only on par with average males?

Its true I don't have the longevity of experience that you have, but in my experience, BC causes mood swings. I use my ex as my example for that one . And the possibility of conception issues is indeed a fact.

For the performance of females in the Army, I can say that the females that I personally know, who are/were ranked at the top of the ROTC OML when they commissioned, they performed at best with the average male when it came to FTXs and PT. I don't know every female in the Army obviously. But I do know and have experience (twice) with the #1 female cadet in the nation. And I stand by what I said in regards to them. Also, please note that enlisted females are NOT eligible to attend RangerSchool.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that I don't think these women are BAD leaders, or soldiers for that matter. They are in fact GOOD leaders. Being a good leader isn't all about your ability to physically outperform your peers. But RangerSchool IS about that.

ok..lol.....wasn't trying to get anyone in trouble...just clarifying....i would assume that any woman applying for ranger school would understand the physical nature of it and would not want to have the stigma of not having to do as much as her male counterparts to get in...i still say keep the standard the same....if they can't pass it ,then no shot at it...

now ,since we are under the sh**storm umbrella.... let me pose a question relevant to the issue at hand...
foxhole buddy...pick one...quick..

I don't really know anything about either of these people, except the one on the right is the chick from Fast and the Furious if I'm not mistaken. I don't know her background but I also don't know the background of the guy in question either. But, to be frankly honest, I'd choose the guy on the left, cause he appears to be an NCO in the USMC, and from what I hear that takes a lot of service, so I'd expect he has a good amount of experience under his belt.

I would also pick the Marine since every Marine is a Rifleman first. The female is Air Force. Nuff said. The only "ground fighters" I know of in the Air Force are PJ's(Para-Rescue) and some of the TAC-Air types. These groups are usually attached to Ranger/SF units from what I understand.

And why only Officers for Ranger School? Is it going to be open to all Female Officers or just certain Branches? Is the school going to be used like some sort of Advanced Leaders Course? For example: "Here Ma'am, you're going to Ranger School. When you get back you will teach your NCO's how to read a map so they don't get lost in....(Iraq)....and if tey do get lost, how to fight, instead of dropping there rifles on the floorboard of the truck."

Andy wrote:For example: "Here Ma'am, you're going to Ranger School. When you get back you will teach your NCO's how to read a map so they don't get lost in....(Iraq)....and if tey do get lost, how to fight, instead of dropping there rifles on the floorboard of the truck."

I thought it's the otherway around....

From what I have heard the core of why it was pushed very hard for females to attend Ranger School was a matter of promotability. Female officers were being denied promotions because male counterparts with the same resume (per say) were also Ranger qualified and therefore beat them out on paper for the slot. So, someone somewhere down the line decided that females need the chance to get Ranger qualified so that they stand in equal footing for equality in being promotable.

Again, that's just the speculative jib-jab I've received, not official word.

makes sense ,within the promotion system at least....

so we are talking about just adding more tabbed rangers,not scrolled?

savoy6 wrote:makes sense ,within the promotion system at least....

so we are talking about just adding more tabbed rangers,not scrolled?

I'd assume it's just tabbed. It doesn't say anything about RASP so...

Put it this way IDF chicks kick @$$! And there are jobs in the field that women can do better then men. Women are good in PR situations. Guys just be greatful someone is serving our country.

That doesn't make sense.

There's always the possibility that they could get pregnant while serving overseas and have to return home or become decomissioned loosing the military money and making us look like a bunch of retards with pregnant women fighting towel heads. I don't think its worth the risk.

Newnan Airsoft Player wrote:There's always the possibility that they could get pregnant while serving overseas and have to return home or become decomissioned loosing the military money and making us look like a bunch of retards with pregnant women fighting towel heads. I don't think its worth the risk.

They do it deliberately to avoid deployment too.

I went to a coed BCT and our FTX was not pleasant when you have females going through "that time of the month". The smell was not pleasant at all.

I know this may be off topic but...

"The smell was not pleasant at all."

Buddy paired with a girl once for a patrol base. That time of month. The...smell.....