Anyone want to have a religious debate?

So I'm opening the door for religious debate. I'm interested to hear from any atheists and agnostics or even those from other religions, but only those who are not going to get bent out of shape or get their feelings hurt. This would be a place for logical arguments, not "You worship a 1st century zombie ZOMG YOU LOSER" bologna.

Just so you know what you would be arguing against, I am a Christian.

Also keep out comments like "I cant believe that you do that" and things against atheists and agnostics. Everyone has their right to belief, even the belief in nothing.

I agree 100% with all of this stuff.

Yeah this is a civil matter where people can come and hopefully have their minds opened a little bit

I guess i will start this. Is there 1 god with many faces or just many gods, also, if there really is a god up there, why would he let all this crap that has been happening lately actually happen?

My first post in here (and I bet you just couldn't bet I'd be up for a good debate ) will be this:

I am a Christian. Baptist, specifically.
I do not agree with EVERYTHING my church teaches as I don't believe anyone is perfect or can have a perfect idea on everything. That said, I will say that I do NOT have all of the answers. However, I do firmly believe that my strength in my faith along with prayer, fellowship, and a LOT of personal experience has led me to have many. Of course, I do suppose that is what we are debating, right?

My answer to Gunny1.5:
I believe there is one God with one face. Now there are 3 parts to God, which we call the Trinity. This is what confuses some people. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one in the same, but three parts. God is essentially the Father, the Creator, etc. Jesus was His Son whom God sent to us in the form of a man. However, as Jesus was conceived perfectly of God (Joseph was his earthly father, but Mary did not become pregnant from sexual activity), He was one with God and therefore perfect. No human can ever possibly be perfect because we are all separate from God at birth and conceived from other humans.

Now, with the base down, why has He let everything happen? As humans, we have free will. Do you know about Adam and Eve? They were made perfectly, in God's own image, and they had free will to do as they please. Lucifer, the most beautiful and powerful of God's angels, basically wanted to overthrow God (if we have free will, is it so hard to believe that angels do as well?). Of course, this is sin at its finest, and so Lucifer was no longer of God, and no longer an angel as we would define it, but rather a demon. Now Lucifer (Satan), came to Adam and Eve in the garden and tempted them to eat from the one tree God commanded them not to. The tree is what would give humans the knowledge of good and evil, and to know what evil is is to be able to follow it. As Lucifer is the most powerful and was the most beautiful (though he came in the form of a serpent), it is understandable how persuasive he would be. Anyway, Adam and Eve ate from the tree, and were introduced to sin. No longer perfect, they had to leave the garden, and here starts humanity.

So, with the 2nd base down (lol), God has let everything happen because of our own accord. He cannot control us because He gave us our own ability to choose. Also, if He were to control us, then we would be perfect and directly of Him, right? So what has happened is because of the sin of man, not God's uncaring or unloving of us. He does in fact love us so much that Jesus, who He sent as His perfect Son, was the sacrifice when He died on the cross so that we may have a direct relationship with God.

Gunny1.5 wrote:I guess i will start this. Is there 1 god with many faces or just many gods, also, if there really is a god up there, why would he let all this crap that has been happening lately actually happen?

First I would like to answer is the second query. This is actually a very in depth question to which many people base their faith on. Ted Turner said he was done with God after seeing his sister die of leukemia. The difference is that God is not a puppeteer. (While there are many who would disagree with me) We each have free will to do what we want to do e.g. Hitler, Stalin, Nero. So my answer to that question is that God gave us free will to choose what to do with our lives. While this gives lots of room for evil, it also leaves great space for good and love e.g. Mother Teresa, which is what God wants; for us to choose to do good and love. So it is not God just "letting this crap happen" it's the perfect design from the beginning that has been corrupted and stained with evil.
To your first question, I would say that there is one God in three forms, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Stalker wrote:Lucifer, the most beautiful and powerful of God's angels, basically wanted to overthrow God (if we have free will, is it so hard to believe that angels do as well?). Of course, this is sin at its finest, and so Lucifer was no longer of God, and no longer an angel as we would define it, but rather a demon. Now Lucifer (Satan), came to Adam and Eve in the garden and tempted them to eat from the one tree God commanded them not to. The tree is what would give humans the knowledge of good and evil, and to know what evil is is to be able to follow it. As Lucifer is the most powerful and was the most beautiful (though he came in the form of a serpent), it is understandable how persuasive he would be. Anyway, Adam and Eve ate from the tree, and were introduced to sin. No longer perfect, they had to leave the garden, and here starts humanity.

What gives you the indication of Lucifer being the most beautiful and powerful of God's angels and who wanted to overthrow God?
What makes you think it was Satan that came to Adam and Eve in the garden?

Stalker wrote:
So, with the 2nd base down (lol), God has let everything happen because of our own accord. He cannot control us because He gave us our own ability to choose. Also, if He were to control us, then we would be perfect and directly of Him, right? So what has happened is because of the sin of man, not God's uncaring or unloving of us. He does in fact love us so much that Jesus, who He sent as His perfect Son, was the sacrifice when He died on the cross so that we may have a direct relationship with God.

God is all powerful, he can control us, he simply chooses not to. Even a demon can control us.

He did speak everything into existence. Sounds pretty powerful to me

well i do not believe in God the stroy of Adam and Eve, I was just talking with my friend Gerald aabout this today, I am a strong beleiver of the theory of Evolution, so i can not and will not beleive that one "person" who came from nothingness created all that is our world. If God created all, then who created him. Also, the only reason i beleive in the theory of evolution is because of the proof that Mendal found. But i do not beleive the Big Bang theory or any of that. Until God shows me a sign that he truely is real, then I can not beleive that he exists. For me, science and religion are basicly the same, it is just something that people over the many years have created to try and help us understand what and why the things that occur on Earth happen.

I mean, I love to read about different religions and here what other cultures belive, but I do not beleive in any of them. Religions are very interesting when you arent basing them against anything else that you have been told or taught.

Take the Greek myths for one example, they actually call them by their true names, "myths", because they see that all of the stories may have never happened. But Christians are always saying that their religion is the only true religion, while muslims say that theirs is the only true religion. In my opinion, none of them are the true religion, it is just something that those people have learned to accept over the years. But until I see more proof that God exists, or that Zeus exists, or Neptune, or Alah, or any other Great Being for that matter, i can not believe that any one religion is true.

To NJSC:
Check out Ezekiel 28, especially verses 15-18. It has a lot of good info.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2028&version=NIV

and if not Lucifer, then who?

To |337
You are right, I should have redefined that.

To Gunny1.5:
My faith and science are one in the same to me as well. Using science, God is just as easily or even more easily 'proven' (as nothing can ever truly be proven) than any other theory. Just give me somewhere to start.

To Gunny, as a Greek who has a very deep seeded and direct knowledge of Greek History the Greeks most certainly did not hold the opinion that their faith in multiple gods was possibly false as you stated. The title of myths was added much later. Another matter, the theory of evolution does not disprove the existence of God in any way shape or form. If it not possible that God created the system of Evolution, and that the story of Adam of Eve is instead an allusion to the long period of time from which Evolution occurred. For example, in evolution life first sprung in the sea (due to its temperature and abundant life sustaining resources), and in the bible's creation story God first creates life in the sea. The time aspect you must also look at, if you say that 7 days is way too short, what is time? Can you define it? Is it one period of existence to another in a chronological measurement? How does Gods chronology work? God is a timeless being, he was not spawned out of nothingness as you stated, instead Christians believe that God is without time, and therefore our understanding of the length of existence and nothingness for that matter cannot be applied to him. 7 days is an allusion to the number 7, which signifies perfection in Jewish and Christian literature, 7 in the creation story meaning the perfect amount of time for the earth to be created. The creation story, in my belief, is nothing more than an allusion to the creation of the the universe and life in it. Did Adam and Eve actually exist? Perhaps, probably not, what you must understand however is that biblical scripture is HIGHLY symbolic, asit is meant to be timeless and apply to readers from all periods of history, which is does flawlessly, another thing about the Bible which makes it a very unique item indeed.

Aggressor wrote:Another matter, the theory of evolution does not disprove the existence of God in any way shape or form.

I will say that while evolution does not dis'prove' it, a Christian faith does dis'prove' evolution, so they cannot agree.

Gunny1.5 wrote:well i do not believe in God the stroy of Adam and Eve, I was just talking with my friend Gerald aabout this today, I am a strong beleiver of the theory of Evolution, so i can not and will not beleive that one "person" who came from nothingness created all that is our world. If God created all, then who created him. Also, the only reason i beleive in the theory of evolution is because of the proof that Mendal found. But i do not beleive the Big Bang theory or any of that. Until God shows me a sign that he truely is real, then I can not beleive that he exists. For me, science and religion are basicly the same, it is just something that people over the many years have created to try and help us understand what and why the things that occur on Earth happen.

I mean, I love to read about different religions and here what other cultures belive, but I do not beleive in any of them. Religions are very interesting when you arent basing them against anything else that you have been told or taught.

Take the Greek myths for one example, they actually call them by their true names, "myths", because they see that all of the stories may have never happened. But Christians are always saying that their religion is the only true religion, while muslims say that theirs is the only true religion. In my opinion, none of them are the true religion, it is just something that those people have learned to accept over the years. But until I see more proof that God exists, or that Zeus exists, or Neptune, or Alah, or any other Great Being for that matter, i can not believe that any one religion is true.

I just want to say that if you are looking for proof ryan its all around you... God's creation... and even more proof can be found in the middle east where famous battles took place. Fragments and pieces can be found from the storys that are told. Now on the subject of God's self existence...in a way yes it is a mystery of how God was created but I believe that when we are sent to Heaven God will show us what we desire to know about him until then it is up to you to believe. Im not forcing Christianity on you im just pointing out some facts.. and one other thing I have a panflit that shows why other major religions of the world are incorrect..

Negative, perhaps the Baptist faith cannot agree however Christianity itself does not disprove evolution. Thats like saying that Red Parrots are Birds, hence all Birds must be Red.

How long is the pamphlet? I'd like to see it, I have one that points out inconsistencies as well.

Inconsistencies are also rampant throughout Christianity, careful before you point fingers, just remember, History is written by mortals, mortals are imperfect, hence history is imperfect, you won't find any religion that is flawless in its presentation.

I believe that some aspects of evolution are true.. other parts probley not.. for example: Darwins theory of natural selection.. Animals with parts that limit them to what they can do. Suppose you have a giraff that has a shorter neck than most giraffs. He will have a harder time eating items in trees. Now the regular giraff will be able to keep eating because he can reach into the trees.

Please explain to me how God can be more easily proven than any other theory when there is no physical proof that he ever existed, or that he ever sent his son to earth, or any thing else in the Bible.

You can go and have basicly anything checked now a days, but please tell me how a virgin can give birth without artificial fertilization, or how a middle aged man can be killed and nailed to a cross and come back to life, or how anyone can seperate a sea at the middle.

Although they are working on prooving that it is possible to walk on water, i still dont believe it.
and if it is possible, the way they are explaining it, anyone would be able to do it, so what would make jesus so special.

And giving a blind man the gift of sight, doctors do that every day, its called glasses, it never says anywhere what Jesus did to let that man have his sight, so for all we know jesus jusst gave hime a broken piece of glass with a concave shape and told him, "Here, put this in front of eyes and you will be able to see clearly agin.

Also, Jesus could have hired the old man to do that and he just have been able to see clearly the whole time, just so that people would accept Jesus instead of shunning him.

And to Aggressor:
I have yet to say anything about the 7 day creation,but yes i belive that time has always stayed the same, but for god to have spoken everything into existance, I can not beleive that, because before he "spoke" it all into existance, there was nothing, so how did he know what anything was or what it would do. I know you think that he is all powerful, but even he could not have seen the impact of his creations that would forcome in the future.

Look at the greenhouse efect, this one small defect in Gods so-called "plan", is deteorating the entire planet. It is causing our polar ice caps to melt which is causing a chain reaction in which the oceans rise, streams over flood, whole islands swallowed by the water, at this rate, Gods "plan" will have been meaningless.

And something else, If God only created one continent, why would he want it to split apart, or if he created all seven continents at once, why would he want them to be heading on a crash course straight for each other.

Stalker that is an oracle about the King of Tyre.
and just because the Bible doesn't say who it is does that give us the right to assume? The sin was not in the serpent it was in the humans of the story.

Gunny the theory of evolution does not have "proof" lets take for example the fossil record. Imagine the surface of the earth like an onion, it has many different layers and the deeper you go the further back in time you would go. Now according to evolution it was the simpler organisms the further back in time you go, but that is not what is shown to us through the fossil record. If you look at it we have complex as well as simple throughout all layers of the earths crust.
Next let us examine the single celled organisms who have flagellum (this theory is called irreducible complexity for further reading). The flagellum is divided up into three distinct parts which according to evolution would have developed over time because of the advantage it would have given to the organism and thus sustained life longer as well as contributed to it's spread of the mutation that has proven to be so much better to life for the organism. The only problem with that is that each of the parts of the flagellum do not work in part but only in the whole. To better understand this you can take a mouse trap. Take each one of the pieces apart and you've just got a pile of junk that doesn't do anything, but when each one of those pieces is put together correctly it kills mice. So there would be no advantage that would sustain a better life from having just one piece and the mutation would then no longer have an advantage and thus would not have been spread further through mating, thus limiting the chance of this evolving to practically zero.
(breath)
The difference with Christianity from the other religions (save for Islam and Judaism) you chose is that God created us out of love. In practically all other religions humans were a burden to God. You may not believe in the Adam and Eve story, but there is no denying that 2000 years ago there was a dude named Jesus and had a posse of 12 other dudes. That guy was put to death on a cross for claiming to be equal with God. This is not biblical evidence, but historical. There is no scholar who denies this. Now these 12 guys were eyewitness to Jesus and practically everything they did. That's how life was for a Rabbi and his disciples (also historical). Now they wrote down what happened to them (quite a bit of what we have as Bible) and there can be only 3 conclusions: 1. they were lying, 2. they were crazy, 3. they were telling the truth.
1. If they were lying, they wouldn't have anything to gain. They were ostracized, stoned, beaten, and eventually killed for what they believed to be true. Now if someone was sitting there with an axe about to chop your head off, wouldn't you confess to the lie? Of course you would to save your own skin. These 12 guys didn't.
2. What percentage would it be for all 12 (13 if you count Paul) guys for having the same disease, with the same hallucinations, and still be able to intelligently argue their points their entire lives? I would venture to say 0%.
3. Well the title of the idea explains itself.

This giraffe would die and hence natural selection would remove it from the gene pool, therefore ratifying Darwin's Theory.

Stalker wrote:How long is the pamphlet? I'd like to see it, I have one that points out inconsistencies as well.

well its more like a broucher.. it compares the Christian faith to that of other religions in the world... Like for example Christianity compared to Islam... The bible states that Jesus was the Massya (cant spell the correctly name sorry) Islam claims that Muhammad is the prophet of God.

Aggressor wrote:Inconsistencies are also rampant throughout Christianity, careful before you point fingers, just remember, History is written by mortals, mortals are imperfect, hence history is imperfect, you won't find any religion that is flawless in its presentation.

correct you must read between the lines. Thats why you have several different parts that branch off from Christianity such as Baptist, Methodist, Mormons, etc.

Gunny1.5 wrote:

And giving a blind man the gift of sight, doctors do that every day, its called glasses, it never says anywhere what Jesus did to let that man have his sight, so for all we know jesus jusst gave hime a broken piece of glass with a concave shape and told him, "Here, put this in front of eyes and you will be able to see clearly agin.

Also, Jesus could have hired the old man to do that and he just have been able to see clearly the whole time, just so that people would accept Jesus instead of shunning him.

Look at the greenhouse efect, this one small defect in Gods so-called "plan", is deteorating the entire planet. It is causing our polar ice caps to melt which is causing a chain reaction in which the oceans rise, streams over flood, whole islands swallowed by the water, at this rate, Gods "plan" will have been meaningless.

And something else, If God only created one continent, why would he want it to split apart, or if he created all seven continents at once, why would he want them to be heading on a crash course straight for each other.

It clearly states that Jesus spit into the dirt and rubbed it on the mans eyes.
Global Warming is a theory, not a proven thing.
Last thing you'll have to ask God about.