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    Anyone want to have a religious debate?

    Bulldog94
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    Post  Bulldog94 05.12.09 0:49

    NJSC wrote:
    Gunny1.5 wrote:

    And giving a blind man the gift of sight, doctors do that every day, its called glasses, it never says anywhere what Jesus did to let that man have his sight, so for all we know jesus jusst gave hime a broken piece of glass with a concave shape and told him, "Here, put this in front of eyes and you will be able to see clearly agin.

    Also, Jesus could have hired the old man to do that and he just have been able to see clearly the whole time, just so that people would accept Jesus instead of shunning him.

    Look at the greenhouse efect, this one small defect in Gods so-called "plan", is deteorating the entire planet. It is causing our polar ice caps to melt which is causing a chain reaction in which the oceans rise, streams over flood, whole islands swallowed by the water, at this rate, Gods "plan" will have been meaningless.

    And something else, If God only created one continent, why would he want it to split apart, or if he created all seven continents at once, why would he want them to be heading on a crash course straight for each other.

    It clearly states that Jesus spit into the dirt and rubbed it on the mans eyes.
    Global Warming is a theory, not a proven thing.
    Last thing you'll have to ask God about.

    im of the belief that global warming is a natural thing... we cant do anything to prevent it.... not to get off subject.
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    Post  Guest 05.12.09 0:49

    At Nic, the "crazy" portion of your 3-tiered argument is flawed. Insanity in terms of a physical manifestation occuring amongst 12 indivuduals is unlikely, however insanity in terms of emotional and perceived realities happens all the time. Take for example cults, like the Haley's Comet worshiping cult who all commited their souls to a spaceship traveling in the wake of the comet. Sounds crazy, because it kinda is crazy, but it didnt stop all those people from commiting suicide in the belief that they would be teleported to the spacecraft. This wasnt the result of a physical mental deficiency, rather an emotional response to a percieved reality, the same argument can be made for all faiths.
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    Post  NJSC 05.12.09 0:55

    But the difference is in the resurrection of Jesus, and not only does this hallucination stop there but hundreds of people. How many insane people have the same hallucination at the same time that is completely counter cultural and blasphemous according to the teachers of the religious law?
    You are also making the assumption that the cults are actually insane. Brainwashing has to be taken into effect, and yes you could make the argument that Jesus brainwashed people, BUT when he died everyone thought that was the end of everything. Jesus wasn't brainwashing anyone because they didn't even get what his plan was until AFTER he rose from the grave. Everyone was mourning him, but if they were actually brainwashed by Jesus then they would have actually understood that his plan was to rise again on the third day. They would have thrown a party because his plan was coming to fruition. He said he was going to die, and he did. Everyone thought it was over and Jesus was dead.
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    Post  Guest 05.12.09 0:56

    I would also like to state that if this type of debate interests you guys definitly take a philosophy course in college. I had an excellent teacher, very unbiased (we would get bonus points if at the end of the semester we could accurately tell if he was a godfearing man or an atheist, I to this day have no idea), but in terms of philosophy (and youll find that the greatest philosophers were also the greatest scientists, and that philosophy ALSO includes the attempted DISPROVAL of God as well as his attempted PROVING) that the existence of a God is a much more feasible reality than the non existence of a God.
    Gunny1.5
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    Post  Gunny1.5 05.12.09 0:56

    The twelve disciples could very well have benn telling the truth they thought they knew, but i still want to see the proof that the twelve disciple ever really existed and that it wasnt just one person trying to come up with a reason for why everything happend. and yes, the world is like an onion, the farther back you go the simpler the organisms get, and yes, there are complex organisms in every level of the Earth. But that doesnt mean that evolution cant be proven, take the Indian Elephant for example, they continued to be killed off for their tusks, and if you went back that far with archaeology, yes you would see that they once had beautiful tusks, but as they continued to be killed, they began to rub their tusks against other objects and they would be shaved down, untill eventualy they began to be born with them. It goes the same for a giraffe, the once had relatively short ncks, but as the trees and shrubs began to grow higher, the giraffe had to adjust to the new challenge and natural selction began to only allow those with long necks live because they had the desirable trait of a long neck so that they could reach the trees.
    Markerscope1 [SOTHG]
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    Post  Markerscope1 [SOTHG] 05.12.09 0:57

    just wana say that i was raised Presbyterian. i stopped believing in a god around the age of 13 and now consider myself atheist, although i think that it is dumb to have a title for a non religious person. in a world without religion, there would not be an 'atheist' even if everyone was considered one by our terms.

    sorry if im not relating to previous posts, just wanted to introduce myself. carry on.
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    Post  Stalker 05.12.09 0:57

    NJSC wrote:Stalker that is an oracle about the King of Tyre.
    and just because the Bible doesn't say who it is does that give us the right to assume? The sin was not in the serpent it was in the humans of the story.

    The difference with Christianity from the other religions (save for Islam and Judaism) you chose is that God created us out of love. In practically all other religions humans were a burden to God. You may not believe in the Adam and Eve story, but there is no denying that 2000 years ago there was a dude named Jesus and had a posse of 12 other dudes. That guy was put to death on a cross for claiming to be equal with God. This is not biblical evidence, but historical. There is no scholar who denies this. Now these 12 guys were eyewitness to Jesus and practically everything they did. That's how life was for a Rabbi and his disciples (also historical). Now they wrote down what happened to them (quite a bit of what we have as Bible) and there can be only 3 conclusions: 1. they were lying, 2. they were crazy, 3. they were telling the truth.
    1. If they were lying, they wouldn't have anything to gain. They were ostracized, stoned, beaten, and eventually killed for what they believed to be true. Now if someone was sitting there with an axe about to chop your head off, wouldn't you confess to the lie? Of course you would to save your own skin. These 12 guys didn't.
    2. What percentage would it be for all 12 (13 if you count Paul) guys for having the same disease, with the same hallucinations, and still be able to intelligently argue their points their entire lives? I would venture to say 0%.
    3. Well the title of the idea explains itself.

    Well said, I will research that further, had not put a full effort into it.
    As for the rest, spot on.

    Everyone: NATURAL SELECTION IS NOT EVOLUTION. Evolution is an actual CHANGE OF SPECIES. Do you deny that dogs can breed with each other? They all can (except for some specific mutations) because their species is the same. The physical characteristics, however, are different. Just like skin color. Now some new breeds come from other mutations, but they are still not a new species. Natural selection is a changing of physical characteristics, not entirely genetic. The genetic code will remain the same while the body reads it with new information.

    Another example (look it up)- a white mouse was once cloned, and using different placements of ... hydrogen, I believe... on the DNA, they made the CLONE black.
    Gunny1.5
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    Post  Gunny1.5 05.12.09 0:59

    mark ,glad to have you part of this debate, and i am also glad to have another atheist on my side.

    please take over from where i left off and correct anything you see wrong with my previous posts.

    I will continue this debat tommorow.
    Good night gentlemen
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    Post  NJSC 05.12.09 1:01

    Well my faith doesn't rest in the idea of evolution being true or not. Heck, God could do anything. To really cook your Goose, I don't even really believe in the literal Genesis 1&2 creation account.
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    Post  Guest 05.12.09 1:04

    Gunny1.5 wrote: once had beautiful tusks, but as they continued to be killed, they began to rub their tusks against other objects and they would be shaved down, untill eventualy they began to be born with them.

    WRONG this can be and has been scientifically disproven. It was a certain strand of the theory of evolution thought up in response to Darwin's natural selection and Darwin himself set out to disprove it. I cant remember what its called but the assumption you make is that the characteristics that an animal has AFTER its birth is handed down to its children. This is a scientific impossibility. For example, I was born tan. If I went out and had surgery to remove all the pigment from my skin, according to your theory, my children would be born without pigment. Or, if I went out and got extremely muscular, utterly jacked, pulsating with muscles and viens, than according to your theory my children would also be born insanely muscular.
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    Post  Stalker 05.12.09 1:06

    NJSC:

    Here, did some more research. Use KJV as it is the most direct translation. King James had the Hebrew and Greek scripts brought in and directly translated, etc., very painstakingly.
    Which also leads me to say that the New Testament was written in Greek. Many do not know that.

    Isaiah 14, specifically 12-14

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2014&version=KJV

    Also, make sure you read my natural selection post up a little bit... VERY important.


    Last edited by Stalker on 05.12.09 1:08; edited 1 time in total
    Gunny1.5
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    Post  Gunny1.5 05.12.09 1:08

    wrong, it was an adaptation that the elephants undertook, those with long tusks ground them off, but natural selection took place and selected those with the trait of small tuskks and inbreed them so that the off spring would have smaller tusks also until eventualy they began to be born without tusks, i am sorry if i was not clear enough on that fact.
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    Post  Guest 05.12.09 1:08

    You could also argue that the Greek Orthodox series of the Bible is the most accurate as it is directly unchanged and unaltered for over 1500 years. I wouldnt say that any Bible is more accurate than any other, but be careful when you try and point out the KingJames Bible specifically, alot of controversy as arisen over it as it is.
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    Post  Guest 05.12.09 1:10

    Gunny1.5 wrote:wrong, it was an adaptation that the elephants undertook, those with long tusks ground them off, but natural selection took place and selected those with the trait of small tuskks and inbreed them so that the off spring would have smaller tusks also until eventualy they began to be born without tusks, i am sorry if i was not clear enough on that fact.

    Ah now I see, kind of confusing the way you worded it. But, as has been said already, Natural Selection is seperate from Evolution in many aspects.
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    Post  Markerscope1 [SOTHG] 05.12.09 1:10

    Aggressor wrote:
    Gunny1.5 wrote: once had beautiful tusks, but as they continued to be killed, they began to rub their tusks against other objects and they would be shaved down, untill eventualy they began to be born with them.

    WRONG this can be and has been scientifically disproven. It was a certain strand of the theory of evolution thought up in response to Darwin's natural selection and Darwin himself set out to disprove it. I cant remember what its called but the assumption you make is that the characteristics that an animal has AFTER its birth is handed down to its children. This is a scientific impossibility. For example, I was born tan. If I went out and had surgery to remove all the pigment from my skin, according to your theory, my children would be born without pigment. Or, if I went out and got extremely muscular, utterly jacked, pulsating with muscles and viens, than according to your theory my children would also be born insanely muscular.

    paul is correct. its in your genes. it was proven with several lab rats if i remember correctly (one of the experiments). 100 rats had their tales chopped off, their offspring had the same lenght tales, which were too chopped off, their offspring had the same lenght and so on....

    but genes are, in fact, passed on.
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    Post  Stalker 05.12.09 1:11

    Aggressor wrote:You could also argue that the Greek Orthodox series of the Bible is the most accurate as it is directly unchanged and unaltered for over 1500 years. I wouldnt say that any Bible is more accurate than any other, but be careful when you try and point out the KingJames Bible specifically, alot of controversy as arisen over it as it is.

    True, but in terms of names and specifics like that, it tends to be the most accurate. Not always, which is why I will cite other ones as well. Check my last post about the Greek writing.

    I wish I knew Greek and Hebrew so I could read the originals. SO much.
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    Post  Markerscope1 [SOTHG] 05.12.09 1:11

    okay then...paul was partially right?
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    Post  NJSC 05.12.09 1:14

    not correct sir. The term used here is O Morning Star and is used as imagery for the King of Babylon. The term lucifer was just thrown in there because that's how King James' theology was. He did not give scrutiny to the interpretation of the texts and comparatively the compilations of modern era are much better translations due to being translated by dozens of scholars instead of just one man's interpretations
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    Post  Markerscope1 [SOTHG] 05.12.09 1:14

    if anyone wants to know about satanism, i know a good bit (compared to those who know nothing except what holy wood portrays it as) and when you get tired of discussing the bible and some evolution stuff we could talk bouts if Smile
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    Post  NJSC 05.12.09 1:16

    Gunny1.5 wrote:wrong, it was an adaptation that the elephants undertook, those with long tusks ground them off, but natural selection took place and selected those with the trait of small tuskks and inbreed them so that the off spring would have smaller tusks also until eventualy they began to be born without tusks, i am sorry if i was not clear enough on that fact.

    Trophy (according to tusk size) elephants are taken every year from Africa though. Plus the time line is not congruent with the idea of evolution.
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    Post  Guest 05.12.09 1:16

    Youd need to learn ancient Greek for that, I speak modern Greek and have read the ModernGreek Bible and its no different than the English counterparts. Good luck finding someone to teach you ancient greek though Razz Using the cliffnotes in the Bible will help you to discern things you dont understand do to differences in language.
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    Post  Stalker 05.12.09 1:18

    ABOUT NAT SELECTION AND TRAIT FALLOUT

    Markerscope:
    lol yes, partially. See, those rats had no reason to get rid of their tails. They were simply being cut off. The tails were still useful. In other situations, traits may not be useful, so the animals will breed accordingly (hence all the show off dances and whatnot) and certain dominant traits that may not be useful anymore will disappear. However, mutations may change something for unfortunate.

    Humans, however, are different. As we have a different capacity from other animals for psychological abilities, as well as more apparent and beyond-need emotion, we choose to let some unuseful genes stay in the pool because we love and care for people. If two autistic people want to have children, then they can.
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    Post  Guest 05.12.09 1:18

    NJSC wrote:

    Trophy (according to tusk size) elephants are taken every year from Africa though. Plus the time line is not congruent with the idea of evolution.

    The fact remains that a significant percentage of elephants without tusks are on the rise. However, is this the result of evolution or a hardcore institution of natural selection? The fact of the matter is the elephants who have the genetic trait of being tuskless arent hunted down and killed in great numbers, making them vastly more prone to survival and reproduction. The elephants didnt evolve into being tuskless, the tusked ones are just being slaughtered.
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    Post  NJSC 05.12.09 1:19

    You can go to a good Bible college and learn Biblical Greek. I have class every Tues. and Thurs. with the Greek Professor and I am always asking him about grammar usage and linguistics. Same with Biblical Hebrew. I have Old Testament Poetry with one of the interpreters that worked on the Hebrew translation for the NIV.
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    Post  Stalker 05.12.09 1:21

    NJSC wrote:not correct sir. The term used here is O Morning Star and is used as imagery for the King of Babylon. The term lucifer was just thrown in there because that's how King James' theology was. He did not give scrutiny to the interpretation of the texts and comparatively the compilations of modern era are much better translations due to being translated by dozens of scholars instead of just one man's interpretations

    hmmm, here we get into some very deep debate and history. I'll flat out say, idk. haha I'm man enough to admit it, said it in my first post. From where I have studied, it is accurate, but chances are others probably have a lot more evidence than I do, so I'll look up some more stuff and see what I come up with. haha thx for being a good debator, test me Smile lol

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