The Delimitation Conflict - SC v/s GA

ok
and one super point
good ol' boys fighten for there state
ask your self
WWTND
(WHAT WOULD TED NUGENT DO)
all the guns and ammo he can carry
full auto
tanks at night with search lights on them
hidin in the bushes
and KICKIN A$$

Twitch wrote:Here is my 2 cents.

You should be allowed to reload in the field without being "resupplied" or having to go back to a base. In a combat situation I would carry as much freaking ammo as possible on me, especially if I had to jump in and knowing I wouldn't be being resupplied for a few days at the earliest. I would have AT LEAST 14 mags on me. Thats a lot of freakin ammo. Translate that to airsoft and high caps (if that is what you use) and that comes out to 4200 airsoft rounds. Thats loaded rounds alone. Especially on patrols with vehicles and what not, most units keep a shit ton of 5.56 ammo cans in the vehicles just in case. Its always better to resupply on the spot rather than wait god knows how long for the resupply to come to you.

Never have been a fan of medics in airsoft. I usually push for no medics ever. You cant call it milsim and then magically being someone back to full fighting strength after touching them for 30 seconds. Wounding guys in real life actually takes more guys out of the fight than actually killing guys. It takes a lot longer than 30 seconds to apply proper first aid and even then that guy is not coming back into the fight. Not to mention how are you going to track field heals anyway? I can see that being abused. Refs wont always see everything. A player may get a field heal at Objective A twice, and then ten minutes later get a field heal again at Objective B, this time around a new enemy squad and new refs who have no idea of his previous 2 field heals. Medics = no good for airsoft IMO.

Semi only at night? Seems to me like I would want as much firepower as possible at night, so that I could confuse, suppress, and disorient my enemy. Violence of action on the objective. aka: beat the ^@#% out of them. Scared of getting shot form 5 feet away on full auto by a 30 RPS 420 FPS gun? Shouldn't have come in the first place then. Man up.

Just my 2 cents. /end rant

I'm not going to argue too much, but I will say that soldiers don't carry as much ammo as you would think. Also, 14 Mid-caps would fit under the limit (120 round mid caps are the mathematical equivalent to real 30 round mags when you consider that airsoft may require three or four rounds per one real round).

No one is scared of being shot from 5 feet away by your gun, which would probably have a fifty foot minimum engagement distance since it is over 400 with .20's but under 400 with .25's. Actually, you would be the rule-breaker in that scenario. The semi auto rule is to prevent "Recon by Fire" and force people to tactically stalk their enemy, so it involves a certain amount of tactical skill. This is, after all, a Mil-Sim game.

Anyway, like I have said many times in many different situations:
If you don't like the rules, don't play. I don't usually play indoor games because I don't really like the spray and pray games. If you do, good for you. Not everything is for everybody.

I am a soldier. And Infantry at that. As long as it is cleared through your units SOP, you can carry as much ammo as you want, although most units have a standard combat load being 14 mags and a training load being 7 mags. At least that is how it usually is. The only problem is that more ammo adds more weight, and when you need to carry other things like water, radios, nods, lasers, and batteries shit gets heavy.

Recon by fire works. If I get shot at and I think the enemy is in a certain location and its at night, Im not going to plink back at him on semi and hope i hit him. He already knows where I am so what do I have to lose? I am going to hose him and the area that he is around with massive amounts of fire in order to suppress him while we attempt to get a better visual of him. Case in point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-AJgtceVMg&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsearch_query%3Dspecial%2Bforces%2Bfirefight%2Bat%2Bniught%26aq%3Df&has_verified=1

I already said I am not attending, I am just trying to say there may be a lot of others like me who will be turned away by the rules and may end up having a very low showing for this game.

Scared of getting shot form 5 feet away on full auto by a 30 RPS 420 FPS gun? Shouldn't have come in the first place then. Man up.

great...another one that thinks this hobby is all about them shooting the s%$t out of other players for their own amusement....anyway....no one is scared of the toy gun....
back on topic....
no one will ever have any large events if we don't understand that going out of state entails having to play under differing rule sets...

Twitch wrote:I am a soldier. And Infantry at that. As long as it is cleared through your units SOP, you can carry as much ammo as you want, although most units have a standard combat load being 14 mags and a training load being 7 mags. At least that is how it usually is. The only problem is that more ammo adds more weight, and when you need to carry other things like water, radios, nods, lasers, and batteries shit gets heavy.

Most Army guys i know have told me they only carry 7-8 mags, but like you said, different units have different SOP, so I stand corrected.
What the reloading in the field rule compares to is a soldier literally carrying around a bag of ammo and reloading his mags in the field.
I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but I personally would have it all in mags.
Anyway, you can only be healed by a medic twice before hiking to a spawn point anyway, so you could just reload there. I played a 24 hour game at this field last fall with a 1600 round limit and never ran out. Of course, my gun doesn't shoot 30rps. I like to think I adapt well to different rule sets too though.

I disagree Savoy. I think that if you really think rules should be changed, you should argue your stance. That being said, I think people have gone about it in the WRONG way. But still, I don't agree with some of the rules. If I can get them changed, why wouldn't I?


"great...another one that thinks this hobby is all about them shooting the s%$t out of other players for their own amusement"

Now what you've done is presented a logical fallacy, called a complex question & a red herring. You've assumed, before reasoning to, that Twitch enjoy's shooting people and hurting them for his amusement, then you go on to present the rest of your argument, which is seperate. What you've also done is personally attack Twitch. Don't do that again.

Unfortunately I'll be on an FTX until late Saturday night, so I won't be able to continue my arguments and so on and so forth. I just want to say that no ill-will or spite is intended from my arguments against the rules, and I'll attend the game regardless, I'd just greatly prefer a different rule set.



Final edit :"The semi auto rule is to prevent "Recon by Fire" and force people to tactically stalk their enemy"

Recon by Fire is a very real tactic that is used by very real units all over the world to draw out the enemy. ESPECIALLY at night. There is nothing non-"milsim" about it.

ok....since you are telling me to be less reactionary....
games ,events and groups have rules that work for them for a reason....whether it's an insurance thing like no mesh or fps limits or rules for medics or respawns that have a DIRECT impact on gameflow...those are the rules for events..if you want to make suggestions, do it in the AAR.but to all but demand ,(i.e. "since you won't change your rules,i'm not going"),changes in the existing ruleset,is counter productive to the community as a whole....people not being adaptive to changing rules sets also leads to the community becoming more insular, like alabama,where over the years that community has devolved into small groups that don't ever leave their own home fields...mainly because of inflexability by players to adapt to differing rules.it's one of the reasons that there hasn't been a major event over there in years....what i'm saying is that travel to new areas and playing under differing rules leads to more openess between communities and to bigger and more well attended events...plain and simple...
as for picking on twitch....
in more than 10 years of playing i have yet to hear the words "man up" in relation to high fps,point blank,no MED,high rof playing style and NOT have it coming out of the mouth of someone that is really more into making others pay a physical price to challenge their percieved tactical awsomeness then they are into the FUN of the hobby....while i understand the line against a "personal attack", i also see that only one person has pointed out that the behavior spoken of would have been a violation of the rules for the event and at any of your fields..my reasoning is more along the lines of a general statement against the attitude presented then a personal attack but but i guess it comes across that way.i don't think i know twitch but now i'm really interested in hitting the field with or against him now...lol..

The airsoft games that I put together are not set to be easy. Ammo restrictions are to slow the pace of the game down and make you plan your attacks better. Not to mention that everyone who plays this game will be in respawn a few times during the game. So while you are there reload your mags plain and simple.

Now on the semi fire at night time rule. This has been in effect since the very first games in SC, and it is mostly for the safety of other players. Also if you ever plan to attend any other large events anywhere else it will be the same way. Don't take my word for it, look it up.

Now onto the medic rules. Let me say this first. The AOSC does not have refs at games. Airsoft is a game of integrity,and honor. Will guys cheat? Sure they will. Will guys still reload in the field and break rules, or abuse the medic rules? Sure they will. They will be the same guys who never call there hits, and eventually have a bad rep and no one will respect them.

This is supposed to be a great fun game, where guys from 2 states can get together shoot each other and make tons of new friends. Come on out and play

exactly...rules for a reason....there we go....

I didn't mean that Recon by Fire isn't a real tactic. However, I dare you to find me one real soldier with a real M-4 who has ever sprayed 300 real rounds at one target. All I'm saying is that a proper time and place exist for such tactics. For example, airsoft BB's don't like to shoot through bushes. It may take 300 rounds to shoot a guy through a bush. The idea of "hey, there's someone in that 500 square foot area, I'll go ahead and light up that entire area" is a bit reckless. See the difference? Those aren't the only two possible examples and I don't claim to be the best person at fire control, but there you go.

Now here's how the AOSC works as far as rules pertaining to this game go. Ammo limits, specific medic/spawn rules, and specific field rules (pyro, alternative weapons, etc.) are up to the game organizer, in this case GARRETT, and may be subject to change.
Safety rules, general rules, the night rules (like the disputed semi only after dark rule), etc. are AOSC rules. Basically, it's not like down here, where the field owners are the guys in charge. This is an AOSC op hosted by Garrett at a field they are renting out for the day. Only certain rules are subject to change.

To be honest, I'm not surprised to see that people want to be able to carry more ammo. One of the biggest differences between "field teams" and "CQB teams" is the type of weapons we carry. I don't know many Airdog guys, but I keep hearing 30rps tossed around. At close range, those guns are awesome, but on a hundred plus acre field, with rules like these, ammo disappears fast. I personally think my rate of fire on my stock VFC is too fast and I like mid-caps, so I naturally like this ruleset. If you don't then that's your opinion. One awesome thing about Ga is that we have fields that will accommodate pretty much anyone's point of view. What we all have to try to do is compromise a little bit so the game can be fun for everyone (something our different fields have always kept us from having to do). GARRETT already raised the ammo limit from 1600 rounds to 2000 rounds. I know that's only another high-cap, but it's something. Now I'm not necessarily against people voicing their opinions about rules they don't like, but like Aggressor said, we go about it in the wrong way. It's one thing to say you don't like a rule-it's another thing to say the rule is stupid. Keep in mind that no one can argue that you don't like something-they can argue it's stupidity, since stupidity is subjective. One thing I would suggest is playing with the ruleset before bashing it. I have played with this set before and I loved it, you may not. You may, however be surprised to fond that it's not as bad as you think.

If we are from GA can we play on the SC side?

At IRENE we had no semi rule at night.

BIochemist wrote:At IRENE we had no semi rule at night.

Fulda Gap does have a semi-only rule as well as a 350fps max at night.

So much argument about the rules...

Personally I wouldn't care at all anymore. Ok I'll go by your field's rule. It's a game that I like to play so whatever works for you. We from GA are just pointing out what we think works out best from out stand point. We have no intent to start arguments, we are just plainly stating what we think of rules that affect a player's style. As you guys have said, semi only at night forces players to stalk the enemy more, well we're not all special forces here. It is a game that we play where we shoot other people and win an objective. It shouldn't matter how we should do it as long as the basic safety and airsoft rules are followed.

And the ammo limit I think is a bit unnecessary. Let the man carry as much ammo as he wants and let him reload mags where ever he wants. I carry 14 150rd midcaps, this rule doesn't bother me because I wouldn't even bother reloading at least one in the field in a live firefight since it's a hassle. But let the people reload wherever they want. Ammo limits for airsoft is not a big game changer. It's no big deal.

And mil-sim or whatever can't really be applied to airsoft that much. How would you define mil-sim? Playing a game where we pretend that we're in the military? How would you know if you're really close to military simulating a game? Have you been in the military? And even if you are, have you seen enough to establish experience to entitle and execute a game that is really a military simulation? We're not all special forces here.

And Twitch, tone it down a little bit. We all know you are upset and all but respect the guys that are organizing the game. Heck, I don't like some of the rules either but I'll play. Even if I can't play because the rules hinder me, I'd just show up and chill. Maybe take pictures, help ref or something.

Well said Flipa. I do disagree slightly on your take on Mil-Sim, a term which generally applies more to command structures at games. It's not just this one game that is doing this. The ammo limit is in lieu of a mag capacity limit. A LOT of games are mid-cap only. SC chose instead to use an ammo limit. Like GARRETT said, the rules makes the game a bit more challenging in that you have to actually think about the amount of ammo you're using. I'm like you though. My loadout is usually 6-8 mid-caps, so the rule doesn't affect me at all. Limit or no, it's going to be a fun game.

As CO, however, I like the limit. It gives me and the platoon leaders more to do if we have to shuffle people around so they can go reload their mags. That's not really a crucial argument, but it's how I feel.

alpharomeo
(For example, airsoft BB's don't like to shoot through bushes. It may take 300 rounds to shoot a guy through a bush.)
yes but the guy in the bush can stick a barrel out of that bush.i have to shoot through it.so if i only have 2k and it takes up to 300 to make a kill--i have a low hit rate,and not enough ammo.
also give me a .223 and i can shoot through a car door--but a.20,.25.30 even a.40
and at range, cardboard is cover..
the rules are rules and if we play we will follow them...
the game and field sound great.and i look forward to it.i would like to at least have a basic 8 hi -cap one in each weapon load out.no reload in the field is fine.
but you say it and i'll play it.
but i still think vehicles at night with spotlights,out on patrol,making you have to hide when they are around would be way cool.

please keep the rules updated on this thread
alot of the players do not check the other forum

i understand alot of the view points on this situation, but i have to side with Twitch on this one....and as far as milsim goes, its airsoft, you can use real tactics and have a realistic kit, but its impossible to go completely milsim, we are shooting at each other with plastic bbs....and with the semi auto at night rule, its ridiculous, at night, if someone is shooting at me or my squad, we will suppress them the general area of that target with as many rounds as we can get down range, if i see bbs coming from a general direction, i will light that area up until 1) the person is hit, or 2) my squad and i get to cover and can locate and identify the target

poopdaddy wrote:alpharomeo
(For example, airsoft BB's don't like to shoot through bushes. It may take 300 rounds to shoot a guy through a bush.)
yes but the guy in the bush can stick a barrel out of that bush.i have to shoot through it.so if i only have 2k and it takes up to 300 to make a kill--i have a low hit rate,and not enough ammo.
also give me a .223 and i can shoot through a car door--but a.20,.25.30 even a.40
and at range, cardboard is cover..
the rules are rules and if we play we will follow them...
the game and field sound great.and i look forward to it.i would like to at least have a basic 8 hi -cap one in each weapon load out.no reload in the field is fine.
but you say it and i'll play it.
but i still think vehicles at night with spotlights,out on patrol,making you have to hide when they are around would be way cool.

please keep the rules updated on this thread
alot of the players do not check the other forum

I LOVE it! These are bb's not bullets so it does take a few more to hit someone! Even with a quality DMR like mine!

poopdaddy wrote:alpharomeo
(For example, airsoft BB's don't like to shoot through bushes. It may take 300 rounds to shoot a guy through a bush.)
yes but the guy in the bush can stick a barrel out of that bush.i have to shoot through it.so if i only have 2k and it takes up to 300 to make a kill--i have a low hit rate,and not enough ammo.
also give me a .223 and i can shoot through a car door--but a.20,.25.30 even a.40
and at range, cardboard is cover..
the rules are rules and if we play we will follow them...
the game and field sound great.and i look forward to it.i would like to at least have a basic 8 hi -cap one in each weapon load out.no reload in the field is fine.
but you say it and i'll play it.
but i still think vehicles at night with spotlights,out on patrol,making you have to hide when they are around would be way cool.

please keep the rules updated on this thread
alot of the players do not check the other forum

Not sure where you're going with the bush thing. That's exactly what I meant. Often, it IS necessary to shoot that much in that situation (sorry if I misunderstand your point).
The rules GARRETT posted on this forum are current, but players not being in the planning forum is their own fault and not my responsibility. I will continue to post on here and Peach State, but players will need to be in the planning forum. More and more players are joining it, but I would love it if everyone joined so I will know what teams I will have there and if I know who everyone is, it will make platoon assignments MUCH easier.

Gunny, no one is claiming that airsoft can ever be like the real thing. I, however, like to try and feel immersed in scenarios as realistic as possible. I also enjoy rule sets that force me out of my comfort zone. I like the stress of things like being low on ammo. It makes the game better for ME. If you don't like that kind of stuff, that's cool too. Like we've said, no one will be forced to play. I really do hope y'all make it out though, then decide next time if you like those rules so you'll know next time. I doubt you'll have a drsatic turn-around in attitude toward the rule, but you may come out thinking it wasn't as bad as you thought.

AlphaRomeo wrote:

poopdaddy wrote:alpharomeo
(For example, airsoft BB's don't like to shoot through bushes. It may take 300 rounds to shoot a guy through a bush.)
yes but the guy in the bush can stick a barrel out of that bush.i have to shoot through it.so if i only have 2k and it takes up to 300 to make a kill--i have a low hit rate,and not enough ammo.
also give me a .223 and i can shoot through a car door--but a.20,.25.30 even a.40
and at range, cardboard is cover..
the rules are rules and if we play we will follow them...
the game and field sound great.and i look forward to it.i would like to at least have a basic 8 hi -cap one in each weapon load out.no reload in the field is fine.
but you say it and i'll play it.
but i still think vehicles at night with spotlights,out on patrol,making you have to hide when they are around would be way cool.

please keep the rules updated on this thread
alot of the players do not check the other forum

Not sure where you're going with the bush thing. That's exactly what I meant. Often, it IS necessary to shoot that much in that situation (sorry if I misunderstand your point).
The rules GARRETT posted on this forum are current, but players not being in the planning forum is their own fault and not my responsibility. I will continue to post on here and Peach State, but players will need to be in the planning forum. More and more players are joining it, but I would love it if everyone joined so I will know what teams I will have there and if I know who everyone is, it will make platoon assignments MUCH easier.

Gunny, no one is claiming that airsoft can ever be like the real thing. I, however, like to try and feel immersed in scenarios as realistic as possible. I also enjoy rule sets that force me out of my comfort zone. I like the stress of things like being low on ammo. It makes the game better for ME. If you don't like that kind of stuff, that's cool too. Like we've said, no one will be forced to play. I really do hope y'all make it out though, then decide next time if you like those rules so you'll know next time. I doubt you'll have a drsatic turn-around in attitude toward the rule, but you may come out thinking it wasn't as bad as you thought.

Sorry I cant be part of the planning I just don't have the time to sign up, track another forum and everything else with my work and family. I will however be at the game.

Rhino, as I said, the rules are up to date on here, but the other forum is private and most of our planning stuff will be posted on there. I recommend that at least one member of your team log into that forum so you won't be out of the loop.

Gerogia? lol

GARRETT, I think it's not only awesome that you spelled following wrong, but it's also hilarious that the computer voice pronounced it somewhat wrong. Seriously though, you're going to pay for your crimes against my state.

AlphaRomero : "However, I dare you to find me one real soldier with a real M-4 who has ever sprayed 300 real rounds at one target"

I'll tell you a story about a FOB that one of our instructors, Col. Rosso (formerly in the Ranger Batt in Afghanistan) told us. In the middle of the night, a mortar hit a FOB that the then Major Rosso was stationed at, single round, wounding 2 individuals, killing one. The response by the commander of this FOB, a Special Forces Col., ordered the utter destruction of all the hill tops around their FOB, using mortars, large artillery pieces, Apache helicopter strikes, A-10 Warthog strikes, and an F16 flown mission using incendiary bombs. In the aftermath, patrols were sent out to determine the effect of the retaliation. No bodies (not even remnants), no equipment, nor any evidence of any enemy troops were found. So, there is a soldier, an EXTREMELY qualified one at that, who ordered the firing of well over 300rnds of ordnance, and probably over 500,000$ dollars of equipment, onto not ONE target, but NO target.

Savoy6, Twitch's "percieved tactical awesomeness" probably comes from his 3 years spent in the 82nd Airborne, who he is STILL with. I'm not saying he is some super hooah killing machine, but he is certainly more qualified than 99% of airsofters out there, especially in making a judgement call on matters such as these.

I'll also say this : If you make rules to change the gameplay style, you need to state that you are changing rules for gameplay style. The real argument here, for me at least, isn't to argue to change rules or what not, its to discount claims that certain rules are "milsim" and certain styles of playing are not "milsim". I'm a fervent believer in the idea that there is no such thing as "milsim" with airsoft guns, unless you are running PTWs in an area with engagement distances no further than 80ft, which, well, you just won't find anywhere. I know its very off the main topic, but I love to argue that point. I hope I don't come across as offensive to anybody, but if thats the case, oh well